The Repentant Woman, Mary of Bethany, and Mary Magdalene: One Figure?

Moonwood · Sep 23, 2026

Grailhunter said:
Yes He is, but not an event. Are all demon possessions the same?

Jesus doesn’t say all demon possessions are identical, but He does explain what happens when seven spirits enter a person: “the last state of that person is worse than the first.” That’s not about one isolated event; it’s a description of what that condition means. So when Luke later says Mary had “seven demons,” he’s using the same category Jesus already defined—seven attached to unclean spirits means complete spiritual ruin, not divine perfection. Whether every case looks exactly the same isn’t the issue; the issue is what Jesus says that condition signifies.

Grailhunter said:
The only thing that John identified is that Mary anointed Yeshua more that once. No specific event given.

John is specifying which Mary is the sister of Lazarus:

"Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill."

He doesn’t identify Mary by “multiple anointings.” He identifies her by one distinctive past action:

“the one who wiped His feet with her hair.”

That is the identifier.

And identifiers only work if they point to an event the audience already knows.
Otherwise, the audience wouldn’t know which Mary he’s referring to.

John 11:2 occurs before the Bethany anointing in John 12, so John cannot be referring to the hair‑wiping in John 12 — that event hasn’t happened yet in the narrative.

This leaves only one earlier hair‑wiping event in any Gospel: Luke 7.

So your claim that “John only identified she anointed Jesus more than once” doesn’t address the actual identifier John uses. John identifies her by a specific past hair‑wiping event — not by “multiple anointings.”

If you reject Luke 7, then your position requires believing John used an identifier that points to nothing, which would mean John didn’t know how to identify someone. That’s far less plausible than accepting he’s referring to the only earlier hair‑wiping event in the Gospel record.

Grailhunter · Sep 23, 2026

Moonwood said:
Jesus doesn’t say all demon possessions are identical, but He does explain what happens when seven spirits enter a person: “the last state of that person is worse than the first.” That’s not about one isolated event; it’s a description of what that condition means. So when Luke later says Mary had “seven demons,” he’s using the same category Jesus already defined—seven attached to unclean spirits means complete spiritual ruin, not divine perfection. Whether every case looks exactly the same isn’t the issue; the issue is what Jesus says that condition signifies.

I understand the scriptures. Cast out seven demons.....but no description of the effects of the demons. Category?
No description.

Grailhunter · Sep 23, 2026

Moonwood said:
Jesus doesn’t say all demon possessions are identical, but He does explain what happens when seven spirits enter a person: “the last state of that person is worse than the first.” That’s not about one isolated event; it’s a description of what that condition means. So when Luke later says Mary had “seven demons,” he’s using the same category Jesus already defined—seven attached to unclean spirits means complete spiritual ruin, not divine perfection. Whether every case looks exactly the same isn’t the issue; the issue is what Jesus says that condition signifies.

John is specifying which Mary is the sister of Lazarus:

"Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill."

He doesn’t identify Mary by “multiple anointings.” He identifies her by one distinctive past action:

“the one who wiped His feet with her hair.”

That is the identifier.

And identifiers only work if they point to an event the audience already knows.
Otherwise, the audience wouldn’t know which Mary he’s referring to.

John 11:2 occurs before the Bethany anointing in John 12, so John cannot be referring to the hair‑wiping in John 12 — that event hasn’t happened yet in the narrative.

This leaves only one earlier hair‑wiping event in any Gospel: Luke 7.

So your claim that “John only identified she anointed Jesus more than once” doesn’t address the actual identifier John uses. John identifies her by a specific past hair‑wiping event — not by “multiple anointings.”

If you reject Luke 7, then your position requires believing John used an identifier that points to nothing, which would mean John didn’t know how to identify someone. That’s far less plausible than accepting he’s referring to the only earlier hair‑wiping event in the Gospel record.

Ya I do not like repeating myself. I keep repeating because you keep going over the same thing.

I have addressed all of your points. You might not like my answers, but I have addressed them. So unless you have something new, it is time for you to give it a rest.

As a Theologian I do not defend doctrines or traditions, I stick with what the scripture says.

What you are doing here is defending a tradition. Which was started by the Catholics. And as a whole the Catholics did not have a good track record on beliefs. One of the reasons they did not want the public reading the scriptures for themselves. Because they were wrong.

Moonwood · Sep 24, 2026

Grailhunter said:
I understand the scriptures. Cast out seven demons.....but no description of the effects of the demons. Category?
No description.

Jesus doesn’t say all demon possessions are identical, but He does explain what the condition of seven unclean spirits means: “the last state of that person is worse than the first.” That’s not describing one isolated event; it’s defining the category. It’s Jesus explaining what that condition signifies.

So when Luke later says Mary had “seven demons,” Luke is using the same category Jesus already defined. Seven attached to unclean spirits means complete spiritual ruin, not divine perfection.

Saying “no description is given” doesn’t change the fact that Jesus already gave the description of what seven unclean spirits means. Luke doesn’t need to repeat it because Jesus has already explained it.

Grailhunter said:
I keep repeating because you keep going over the same thing.

You keep saying I’m repeating myself, but I’m repeating the part of the argument you keep skipping.

Grailhunter said:
...I stick with what the scripture says.

Appealing to “sticking with Scripture” doesn’t work when the issue is precisely what Scripture says. John 11:2 is Scripture. And John uses a specific past hair‑wiping event to identify which Mary is Lazarus’s sister. If you erase the identifier, you’re not sticking with Scripture — you’re ignoring the Evangelist’s own method of identification.

In John 11:2, John is specifying which Mary is the sister of Lazarus:

"Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill."

He identifies Mary by one distinctive past action:

“the one who wiped His feet with her hair.”

That is the identifier.

And identifiers only work if they point to an event the audience already knows.
Otherwise, the audience wouldn’t know which Mary he’s referring to.

John 11:2 occurs before the Bethany anointing in John 12, so John cannot be referring to the hair‑wiping in John 12 — that event hasn’t happened yet in the narrative.

This leaves only one earlier hair‑wiping event in any Gospel: Luke 7.

If you reject Luke 7, then your position requires believing John used an identifier that points to nothing, which would mean John didn’t know how to identify someone. That’s far less plausible than accepting he’s referring to the only earlier hair‑wiping event in the Gospel record.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
Jesus doesn’t say all demon possessions are identical, but He does explain what the condition of seven unclean spirits means: “the last state of that person is worse than the first.” That’s not describing one isolated event; it’s defining the category. It’s Jesus explaining what that condition signifies.

So when Luke later says Mary had “seven demons,” Luke is using the same category Jesus already defined. Seven attached to unclean spirits means complete spiritual ruin, not divine perfection.

Saying “no description is given” doesn’t change the fact that Jesus already gave the description of what seven unclean spirits means. Luke doesn’t need to repeat it because Jesus has already explained it.

Yes, seven demons. Not all demon possessions are the same, not even if they are the same number. We have no details of how those details on how those seven demons affected her. And I am not sure if the demons were spiritual, physical, or mental.
And no description is given, means just that. Yeshua did not describe demon possession saying, and this is always how it always happens and these are always the effects. So again no description of the details and that is a fact.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
Appealing to “sticking with Scripture” doesn’t work when the issue is precisely what Scripture says. John 11:2 is Scripture. And John uses a specific past hair‑wiping event to identify which Mary is Lazarus’s sister. If you erase the identifier, you’re not sticking with Scripture — you’re ignoring the Evangelist’s own method of identification.

I can understand that sticking with the scriptures does not work for you.....because you come up with your own story. Again hair wiping is not a patented method or a limitation of how many times they can do it or how many women can do it. Sticking with the scriptures means you do not add to them and stick with what they say and what they do not say, really does not matter.
Sometimes we do not know the details but that does not give us a license to fill in the blanks and imply they are scriptural. What you believe is a Catholic tradition, not supported by scripture.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
You keep saying I’m repeating myself, but I’m repeating the part of the argument you keep skipping.

Have not skipped any. Addressed all your posts.....don't care if you do not agree.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
Appealing to “sticking with Scripture” doesn’t work when the issue is precisely what Scripture says. John 11:2 is Scripture. And John uses a specific past hair‑wiping event to identify which Mary is Lazarus’s sister. If you erase the identifier, you’re not sticking with Scripture — you’re ignoring the Evangelist’s own method of identification.

In John 11:2, John is specifying which Mary is the sister of Lazarus:

"Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill."

He identifies Mary by one distinctive past action:

“the one who wiped His feet with her hair.”

That is the identifier.

And identifiers only work if they point to an event the audience already knows.
Otherwise, the audience wouldn’t know which Mary he’s referring to.

John 11:2 occurs before the Bethany anointing in John 12, so John cannot be referring to the hair‑wiping in John 12 — that event hasn’t happened yet in the narrative.

This leaves only one earlier hair‑wiping event in any Gospel: Luke 7.

If you reject Luke 7, then your position requires believing John used an identifier that points to nothing, which would mean John didn’t know how to identify someone. That’s far less plausible than accepting he’s referring to the only earlier hair‑wiping event in the Gospel record.

Already addressed all this.

Moonwood · Sep 24, 2026

Grailhunter said:
Yes, seven demons. Not all demon possessions are the same, not even if they are the same number. We have no details of how those details on how those seven demons affected her. And I am not sure if the demons were spiritual, physical, or mental.
And no description is given, means just that. Yeshua did not describe demon possession saying, and this is always how it always happens and these are always the effects. So again no description of the details and that is a fact.

You’re confusing symptoms with category. Jesus wasn’t giving a medical case report; He was defining what the condition of seven unclean spirits means. His description is: “the last state of that person is worse than the first.” That’s not about identical symptoms in every case — it’s the meaning of the condition.

So when Luke says Mary had “seven demons,” Luke is using the same category Jesus already defined. Seven attached to unclean spirits means complete spiritual ruin. Whether every possession looks exactly the same isn’t the issue; the issue is what Jesus says that condition signifies.

Saying “no description is given” ignores the fact that Jesus did give the description that matters — the spiritual condition itself. Luke doesn’t need to repeat symptoms because Jesus already explained the category.

Grailhunter said:
Already addressed all this.

Saying “already addressed” doesn’t make an argument appear where none was given. You still haven’t addressed the actual point: John identifies which Mary is Lazarus’s sister by referencing a specific past hair‑wiping event. You keep talking about names, possibilities, and traditions, but you haven’t addressed the identifier, the timeline, or the audience‑knowledge requirement.

In John 11:2, John does not specify which Mary is Lazarus’s sister by saying:

"Mary of [so-and-so]", nor
"Mary of [location]"

but rather by referencing a specific past hair‑wiping event:

"Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill."

That identifier only works if it points to an event and distinctive action the audience already knows about — otherwise, the audience wouldn’t know which Mary he’s referring to.
John 11:2 occurs before the Bethany anointing in John 12, so John cannot be referring to the hair‑wiping in John 12 — that event hasn’t happened yet in the narrative.
The only other known recorded event where Jesus was anointed and His feet were wiped with hair is Luke 7.

You deny John is referring to Luke 7, and therefore your position requires believing John used an identifier that points to nothing, which would mean John didn’t know how to identify someone. That’s far less plausible than accepting he’s referring to the only earlier hair‑wiping event in the Gospel record.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
You’re confusing symptoms with category

There no category implied by the scriptures.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
Jesus wasn’t giving a medical case report; He was defining what the condition of seven unclean spirits means.

Yes I know. But I am considering the condition of Mary.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
So when Luke says Mary had “seven demons,” Luke is using the same category Jesus already defined. Seven attached to unclean spirits means complete spiritual ruin. Whether every possession looks exactly the same isn’t the issue; the issue is what Jesus says that condition signifies.

We don't know that Luke was using the same "category" that Yeshua defined. All that is said is that Yeshua cast out 7 demons. No details, no effects. The scriptures do not tie them together.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
Saying “already addressed” doesn’t make an argument appear where none was given. You still haven’t addressed the actual point: John identifies which Mary is Lazarus’s sister by referencing a specific past hair‑wiping event. You keep talking about names, possibilities, and traditions, but you haven’t addressed the identifier, the timeline, or the audience‑knowledge requirement.

I have addressed this more than once. You just keep bringing it up and my answer will be the same. The timeline is not given for when Mary had anointed Him before. The audience Knowledge? You mean the audience imagination.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
"Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill."

But not a specific event. And again I have addressed this.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
You deny John is referring to Luke 7, and therefore your position requires believing John used an identifier that points to nothing, which would mean John didn’t know how to identify someone. That’s far less plausible than accepting he’s referring to the only earlier hair‑wiping event in the Gospel record.

John points to when Mary had anointed Yeshua.....no details given. And again and again and again, I am sure that John knows how to identify a person by name.

Moonwood · Sep 24, 2026

Grailhunter said:
There no category implied by the scriptures.

Grailhunter said:
Yes I know. But I am considering the condition of Mary.

Grailhunter said:
We don't know that Luke was using the same "category" that Yeshua defined. All that is said is that Yeshua cast out 7 demons. No details, no effects. The scriptures do not tie them together.

You also say you’re “considering the condition of Mary,” but you’re ignoring the only scriptural definition of the condition Mary had. Luke says she had seven demons, and Jesus has already explained what that condition signifies. Luke doesn’t need to repeat Jesus’ definition because Jesus already gave it.

Saying “we don’t know if Luke was using the same category” doesn’t work, because Luke uses the exact same number Jesus defined. When Scripture uses the same number, the same condition, and the same terminology, the burden is on you to show they aren’t connected — not on me to pretend Jesus’ definition doesn’t exist.

Your argument that “no details or effects are given” is irrelevant. Jesus wasn’t giving a medical case report; He was defining the spiritual state of someone with seven unclean spirits. Luke applies that same condition to Mary. That’s the connection Scripture itself gives.

Grailhunter said:
...I am sure that John knows how to identify a person by name.

But he didn’t identify her by name alone in John 11:2 — because “Mary” by itself isn’t enough when there are several Marys in the Gospel narrative. John adds a distinctive past action to specify which Mary he means.

Here’s a simple test.

In John 11:2, John identifies which Mary is Lazarus’s sister — and he does not do it by saying:

“Mary of [so‑and‑so],”
or “Mary of [location],”

but rather by referencing a specific past hair‑wiping event:

“Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped His feet with her hair.”

Which Mary is he referring to.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
You also say you’re “considering the condition of Mary,” but you’re ignoring the only scriptural definition of the condition Mary had. Luke says she had seven demons, and Jesus has already explained what that condition signifies. Luke doesn’t need to repeat Jesus’ definition because Jesus already gave it.

Saying “we don’t know if Luke was using the same category” doesn’t work, because Luke uses the exact same number Jesus defined. When Scripture uses the same number, the same condition, and the same terminology, the burden is on you to show they aren’t connected — not on me to pretend Jesus’ definition doesn’t exist.

Your argument that “no details or effects are given” is irrelevant. Jesus wasn’t giving a medical case report; He was defining the spiritual state of someone with seven unclean spirits. Luke applies that same condition to Mary. That’s the connection Scripture itself gives.

Again you mix it all together and then come up with a definitive conclusion. The is no definitive conclusion on this. All we have is Yeshua cast out 7 demons......and he was not defining a spiritual state.....just seven demons. Other than wondering about the details, I am not adding or taking away. Sticking with the storyline in the scriptures. And again there is no category defined.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
But he didn’t identify her by name alone in John 11:2 — because “Mary” by itself isn’t enough when there are several Marys in the Gospel narrative. John adds a distinctive past action to specify which Mary he means.

Well it gives us which Mary, Mary of Bethany....Mary Magdalene. But no specific event, just another anointment.

Moonwood · Sep 24, 2026

Grailhunter said:
Again you mix it all together and then come up with a definitive conclusion. The is no definitive conclusion on this. All we have is Yeshua cast out 7 demons......and he was not defining a spiritual state.....just seven demons. Other than wondering about the details, I am not adding or taking away. Sticking with the storyline in the scriptures. And again there is no category defined.

You keep saying “no category is defined,” but Jesus explicitly defines the condition of seven unclean spirits in Luke 11:26:

“The last state of that person is worse than the first.”

That is a definition. Not a symptom list, not a medical report — a meaning.

You also say Jesus “was not defining a spiritual state,” but that is exactly what He was doing.
He wasn’t describing behaviors; He was explaining what the condition signifies.

Luke then applies that same condition — seven demons — to Mary.
Luke doesn’t need to repeat Jesus’ definition because Jesus already gave it.

Your claim that “all we have is Yeshua cast out 7 demons” ignores the fact that Scripture uses:

the same number,
the same terminology,
the same condition,
already defined by Jesus.

If you want to argue Luke is not using the category Jesus defined, the burden is on you to show why the same number, same condition, and same terminology suddenly mean something different.

Saying “no details are given” doesn’t change anything.
Jesus wasn’t giving details either — He was giving the meaning of the condition.

Luke applies that meaning to Mary. That’s the connection Scripture itself gives.

Grailhunter said:
Well it gives us which Mary, Mary of Bethany....Mary Magdalene. But no specific event, just another anointment.

You just said John identifies her as “Mary of Bethany,” but John never uses that phrase.
John 11:1 gives the location of Lazarus’s family.
John 11:2 gives the identifier for Mary, and it is not location — it is a specific past hair‑wiping event:

“Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped His feet with her hair.”

You also said this is “just another anointment,” but you still haven’t named which anointment John is referring to.

So let’s return to the test:

Which Mary performed the past hair‑wiping event John uses as the identifier?

And which specific past event is John referring to?

Until you can name the event, your claim that “it’s just another anointment” has no content.

Grailhunter · Sep 24, 2026

Moonwood said:
You keep saying “no category is defined,” but Jesus explicitly defines the condition of seven unclean spirits in Luke 11:26:

Condition of the example He gave. The Bible does not define categories of demonic possession. Modern exorcists probably have categories of demonic possession. But nothing in the Bible.

The Repentant Woman, Mary of Bethany, and Mary Magdalene: One Figure?

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