A Textual Challenge to the “Mary and Joseph Had Later Relations” Position

[Pavel Mosko]

M

If Mary expected to conceive naturally through Joseph, why does Gabriel respond with a description of miraculous, non‑sexual conception and reinforce it by citing Elizabeth — a woman whose conception was naturally impossible? What relevance would Elizabeth’s impossibility have if Mary’s conception were expected to be natural?


These questions arise directly from Luke’s narrative logic. If the text supports the expectation of normal marital relations, it should be possible to explain why Mary and Gabriel speak as though conception is impossible without divine intervention. Impossibilities in Scripture are tied to physical obstructions — barrenness, age, infertility, or lack of a husband. Mary has none of these. Under Her circumstances, natural conception through Joseph is entirely possible. Yet She speaks as though conception is impossible under Her expected future circumstances. I ask that responses address these questions directly, without shifting to unrelated topics or assumptions.

This is an interesting presentation and a little different than what I'm used to. I sort of made a similar kind of argument to an Evangelical woman on a web site in the early 2000s. It always stuck out for me the title "Virgin Mary". It is really funny for people to believe the Helvidian position of the thread and use that. Really if you were to believe that confessionally speaking you should be using a title similar to those proposed by Nestorius 16 centuries back calling her "The Mother of our Savior", "The Mother of our Lord". Yet these people literally believe she lost her actually virginity 2000 years ago a few weeks or months after giving birth, and made her a perpetual honorary virgin perpetually because of the original virgin birth, in spite of that actually being totally. And then of course you got to mention, all the proof of virginity stuff that was around back then, when stoning people for adultery was in and that just would add another layer to things. Like why it would be a miracle.

 

[sondring7]

This is an interesting presentation and a little different than what I'm used to. I sort of made a similar kind of argument to an Evangelical woman on a web site in the early 2000s. It always stuck out for me the title "Virgin Mary". It is really funny for people to believe the Helvidian position of the thread and use that. Really if you were to believe that confessionally speaking you should be using a title similar to those proposed by Nestorius 16 centuries back calling her "The Mother of our Savior", "The Mother of our Lord". Yet these people literally believe she lost her actually virginity 2000 years ago a few weeks or months after giving birth, and made her a perpetual honorary virgin perpetually because of the original virgin birth, in spite of that actually being totally. And then of course you got to mention, all the proof of virginity stuff that was around back then, when stoning people for adultery was in and that just would add another layer to things. Like why it would be a miracle.

Do you believe that Mary did NOT have sex with Joseph AFTER the birth of Christ ?

 

[rwb]

Thank you for replying.

My questions are not about “doctrines of man” — they come directly from Luke’s narrative.

Could you please answer the two specific textual questions I asked?

1. Why does Mary ask how conception will occur if She expects normal marital relations?
2. Why does Gabriel respond with a description of miraculous conception rather than simply telling Her it will happen through Joseph?

Your reply didn’t address either of these, and they are the core of the discussion.

1. Because Mary knew that conception could not normally occur without copulation between man and woman.
2. Gabriel replies in a manner that we as well as Mary might know the child conceived in her womb was miraculous proof the child is the Son of God. That the prophesy would come to pass.

As further confirmation the angel of the LORD appeared to Joseph in a dream telling him the same thing, which is fulfillment of that which was spoken by the prophet saying the Lord Himself would given a sign, a virgin would conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel, meaning God with us.

According to the law for a thing to be true there must be testimony given by at least two people.

Mt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Mt 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

John 8:17 (KJV) It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

The truth established spoken by the prophet Isaiah, confirmed of both Mary and Joseph.