What is the meaning of Grace, according to the Bible?

bro.tan said:

Animal sacrifices was works the priesthood had to do, because of sin. Paul said in (Gal. 6) (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden. That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. You mean you thought that all you had to do was confess the name of Jesus and that was it? You must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you.

Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24-27) (v.24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That was the Lord’s burden, to die on the cross for the sins of man. Now as we read earlier every man must bear his own burden, and what is your burden? (v.25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You must give up your life in this world; you must not get caught up in the cares of this world. You must bring forth-good fruits of faith by keeping God’s commandments, statues, and judgments. (v.26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

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You must work to get salvation.

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Eph. 2:8-10 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

bro.tan said:

A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

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We agree on this brother but does nothing to answer the questions I asked you. Again, I was speaking of what *justifies* us--not what is important as resulting from our Justification. After all, if we are not Justified, then there is no use obeying God's laws at all, because it will never suffice to reconnect us to God.

bro.tan said:

Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. You must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY. (v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can. Just as you choose by your own free will to start serving the lord, you can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul. And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.

Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

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Unbelievable! I ask you questions about Justification and you simply go on to claim that we must obey God's commandments! As I've told you, obeying God is not the issue when we speak of Justification. It is clear from Scriptures that our obedience does *not* Justify us. Instead, our obedience reveals a spotty record, and just a single sin can keep us out of heaven, just as one sin kept Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. A single sin disqualifies us from remaining in God's presence. And so, obedience *cannot* Justify us!

But you completely ignore this and prefer to just drone on about obedience--something we would all agree on, ignoring the most important matter of Justification. It is important because without Justification obedience continues to keep us out of God's presence, not just now but forever. We must live by Grace, and not by the record of our performance. We must perform yes, but that is *not* the basis of our Justification.

So, the issue is not obedience, which we all agree is important to show our faith. And I wouldn't at all say that faith is cheap and excludes obedience. Rather, obedience is the means of showing our faith. So, faith justifies us by showing our obedience as well as by showing that we are trusting in Christ's work as the basis of our Justification.

But when we place our obedience in the Law of Moses we are determining that we are relying on a system designed to show our flaws, as opposed to relying on Christ who bases our relationship with God on His mercy. If we place our obedience in a Law that utilizes outdated means of temporary justification, then we nullify our dependence on Christ himself, who alone can provide permenant Justification.

So, what is it--reliance on the Law of Moses, with its exclusion of dependence on Christ, or obedience that shows our reliance on Christ? This is what you obscure in your constant droning on about the need to obey. You avoid the issue of Justification altogether by making faith something less than it really is, as if it excludes obedience to God.

It does not. Obedience to God's word is what upholds and supports our faith. And it is faith in Christ alone that Justifies. Obedience without Christ cannot possibly Justify anybody.

When you make something under the Law of Moses, such as Sabbath Law, the basis of our Justification, you are excluding Christ and his obedience as the basis of our Salvation. We cannot earn, by Sabbath obedience, Eternal Life. Rather, Christ obtained for us Eternal Life by virtue of His own personal holiness and willingness to grant to us God's mercy and grace. You don't seem to understand this?

Obedience is indeed important, but only to show our reliance upon Christ. It is Christ who Justifies, and not our record of obedience.

bro.tan said:

A single sin you say. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27)

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I'm not talking about our record of sin, which we all have, even as Christians! I'm talking about the *system of justification* that we use to either cover those sins or not.

When we try to follow one of the requirements of the Law of Moses, and rely on that *system,* we are giving ourselves a false form of justification, because the Law as a system cannot justify us. But when we live by faith in Jesus, trusting in his revelation alone, and not on requirements given under the Law, we are choosing to live under a completely new system.

That system of reliance upon Jesus alone does not invalidate the principles of morality contained in the Law. Rather, it places morality under a brand new system such that we do not meet the requirement of morality under the Law but only under Christ.

You might ask, "What is the difference between obeying the law not to kill under the Law and obeying the law not to kill under Christ? The difference is the system we're in allegiance to, whether to the Law of Moses or to Christ alone.

Granted, Israel had to trust in a temporary system until Christ came. For awhile, it was okay to trust in that temporary system because it was based on the future coming of Christ to complete full redemption. But once Christ came, going back to rely on the Law is to reject the very basis of redemption the Law was designed to anticipate.

When we avoid murder in allegiance to Christ, in fulfillmen of the prohibition of murder in the Law, we know that we don't have to obey relics of morality that existed exclusively under the Law, such as Sabbath Law, the Law of Animal Sacrifice, Temple Law, Dietary Law, Festival Law, Laws of Purification, Priestly Law, etc. etc.

Moral Law has to be extracted from anything associated exclusively from the Old Covenant system in order to show we're relying only on Christ alone as our system of choice. We have to acknowledge that the Old Covenant was designed to only temporarily apply to Israel until Christ came. Returning to reliance upon the Law is, in effect, choosing to deny that it was designed to be completed in Christ.

If we choose to obey Sabbath Law when that is exclusively a part of the OT system, and not a part of the Christian system, we are choosing to live under a system that takes our sins into consideration when determining our eternal destiny. Only Christ and dependence on him can determine that we have and will have Eternal Life. Only Christ can fully cover sin. OT Law only covered sin for Israel on a temporary basis until Christ came.

bro.tan said:

What Law are you talking about??

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There are only two senses of God's Law that I refer to: either the Law of Moses or the Law of God as a general principle of God's requirements under any covenant. The Law of Moses is tied to a specific covenant, whether moral law or ceremonial law--it is a system of temporary justification, and not a system of final justification.

If you keep a moral law under the Law of Moses, such as "Do not kill," it remains an inadquate form of justification, even though the same moral law may be available under the system of Christ. It really matters *under what system* you are obeying Moral Law?

bro.tan said:

You are confuse on which law is which. Paul says in (Gal. 3:1, 13, 16-17, 19, 24) (v.1) O FOOLISH Ga-la’-tians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (v.13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE: What law is this talking about? Let the bible speak for itself

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Your quote does not determine anything different from what I just said. The Law of Moses is tied to the Old Covenant, which contains both Moral Law and Ceremonial Law. It is an inadequate system of justification. If anybody thinks just keeping the Moral part of the Law of Moses is adequate, just look at what Jesus said to the Rich Young Ruler....

Matt 19.16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

bro.tan said:

(v.16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of One, AND TO THY SEED, which is Christ. (v.17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

To sum up what going on here in Galatians, Paul is explaining that Christ came from Abraham seed, and remove the animal Sacrificial law. But in the days of Abraham that animal Sacrificial law never was on the table, and was not needed for Abraham to obey and have faith in God. But the Commandments was always on the table.

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You are confusing how Faith saved before or under the system of Law and how Faith is actually tied to Christ's system of justification. Anything prior to the cross of Christ relies on faith that lacks a system of final justification unless it is looking beyond it to Christ's system of justification--a system relying not on self-justification, but on trust in God's mercy.

The Law did not rely on man's record of righteousness, which was flawed. Rather, it relied upon God's mercy. It was not a self-validating system, but rather, a precursor to a new system, which also relied on God's mercy, but added a means of final justification, including Christ's unflawed record of righteousness.

If you remain tied to the Old Covenant system, whether exercising Morality or following Ceremonial Law, you are not relying on Christ's record of righteousness, but on your own flawed record of righteousness. As such, you remain unjustified in the final sense.

Faith is able to look forward to Christ's system of justification even before it is realized. This does not validate pre-Christian Law--rather, it validates Faith as a precursor to the system of Christian justificaiton. It only validates the Law of Moses as an expression of faith that looks beyond the Law to something better.

Faith is ever a system that relies upon God's mercy. Whether a sinner as yet unjustified in the OT era or a sinner justified in the Christian era, faith relies upon God's mercy. It does not depend on the human record of righteousness, which always falls short of final justification. It always looks beyond man's record of righteousness, no matter how valid it is, because any sin will disqualify us. The Law pointed this out, and Christ himself pointed it out.

The presence of faith under the Old Covenant system, or under the Law of Moses, does not validate it as a means of final justification. It only validates the faith that looks necessarily beyond it to a means of final justification through Christ's record and gift of righteousness.

bro.tan said:

Now pay attention, the law that is being spoken of here came four hundred and thirty years after this covenant. But God’s holy commandments have been around forever even before man was created. Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. (1John 3:4)

(v.19) Wherefore then serveth the law? A question is being asked here. Then why should we serve this law? It was added because of transgression, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the law that we are talking about here was added because of sin. But we now know that sin is the transgression of the law.

How do you add a law if sin is the transgression of the law?

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This just proves my point that there are two senses of God's Law, the general sense requiring obedience to God under all covenants and the technical application of Moses' Law, which involved both Moral Law and Ceremonial Law. What was "added" was the Law of Moses. The "transgression" that previously existed was sin against the general sense of God's Law, requiring obedience under any occasion.

You seem to wish to divide Ceremonial Law from Moral Law as two distinct systems? They aren't. The Law of Moses was strictly Old Covenant. And even though it contained Moral Law, that did not validate the Old Covenant system as a final means of justification.

Again, final justification is based on faith, which looks beyond the Old Covenant and beyond the Law of Moses to the record of Christ's righteousness and his enablement of virtue for those who completely commit to him. Saying the Moral Law remains a valid aspect of the Law of Moses excludes Christ as a necessary means of final vindication. People cannot follow Moral Law alone, excluding dependence on Christ, and be saved.

bro.tan said:

Because there are two sets of laws, you have God’s holy commandments which abided forever, and you had the animal sacrificial law which was added because of sin, but it was only good until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and that seed was Jesus.

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The Law of Moses clearly was not just "animal sacrifical law." Rather, it was both Moral Law and Ceremonial Law. If you keep the Law prohibiting murder *under the Law of Moses* you cannot obtain final justification--only if your faith looks beyond that system as now obsolete, since Christ has now supplanted it. If you keep God's Law prohibiting murder under the New Covenant you rely on Christ's righteousness, as well as on God's mercy.

It is *Christ's righteousness* that justifies, and our faith relies on that instead of on our moral adherance, which is only representative of our faith in Christ's righteousness. Whatever we do that is right relies upon Christ for our validation.

bro.tan said:

(v.24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster. (Paul breaks down more of this law in Hebrew 10th Chapter)

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I agree--Paul is talking about God's Law residing in two different eras and in two different covenants. That goes without saying.

To understand Paul you must recognize that he opposed the Law of Moses as a system of final justification, but credited it as a moral system and as a system of temporary justification. Paul recognized that the Law of Moses showed in its form of righteousness an example of faith ultimately directed towards Christ as its object, supplanting the temporary system of the Law.

Be Moral, but don't say you're under the Law of Moses. That Law was designed not to validate itself but only to point out our flaws, which delegitimized us. Rather, we are moral now because the Law directed us to Christ, who requires that we depend on him and on his record for moral validation.

bro.tan said:

The sacrificial law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Before we continue, we must clear one thing up. Are we justified by faith alone? Let's see. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31) What law is established? Certainly not the sacrificial law, we have seen above that it was added because of transgression until the Seed came (which was Christ). The Royal law to be established forever which are the Ten Lords commandments!

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Faith establishes the Law because God requires faith for you to be saved, since the Law condemns you to death.

The law is establish by faith because the requirement for faith validates that you are only condemned under the Law.

You need to understand that once someone becomes a lawbreaker by transgressing the Law, that is a permanent condition, you are a Lawbreaker. So it is required that you truth in Christ to be saved. Because it's a truth - the Law condemned you.

Much love!

bro.tan said:

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully.

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This is not true, you need to study this more.

Liars and thieves for instance.

bro.tan said:

Let's go back to square one and get of understanding.....We will see there were two laws given to Moses, they were the commandments and the sacrificial law.

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No, if you're talking about the 10 Commandments, the commandments the the Law of Sacrifice were never divided from the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments and the Law of Sacrifices are merely subsets of the same Law of Moses. The Commandments were a kind of short version of the entire Law, distilling the entire Law as the moral equivalent of loving God and loving our neighbor. To properly love God one must obey God's command to Sacrifice as well as obey God's command to treat others fairly.

bro.tan said:

Watch how they worked together. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2) The law in the scriptures above is the commandments.

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's skip down to the 27th verse and take a look at the second law (which is the sacrificial law).

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My own opinion is that the idea of "willful sin" refers to deliberate and reckless rebellion against God. How can one be forgiven if his intention is to oppose God and turn to other gods? Many sins are committed with the knowledge they are wrong, but they can repent and acknowledge that they were shortsighted, and thus not truly "willful." There was temptation and pressure to capitulate to the lusts of the flesh.

bro.tan said:

Think about this for a moment. If an animal was killed for a person that committed sin, what will happen to us today if we a trespass against the Lord?

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We reap trouble when we sow to the flesh. We sin every day, but only big sins reap big consequences. God is merciful, patient, and kind. He does not in any way excuse sin, but He understands our weakness, and had His Son die for our sins.

bro.tan said:

Let's go into Paul's writings and take another look at both of these laws. We will go into the Book of Galatians chapter 3. This is one of the chapters that the majority of Christian preachers use to do away with the Lord's commandments. Now, let's read carefully!

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)

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This verse did not in any way support applying the Law of Moses under the New Covenant! Paul was speaking of the purpose of the Law being preparatory for the New Covenant of Christ and expiring at that point.

bro.tan said:

Take heed to what Paul's says above, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions." What is transgression? Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4) Transgression is braking of the commandments. What law was added because of the braking of the law? The sacrificial law! Paul is simply asking these Gentiles, "why perform the sacrificial law? It was added because of sin until the seed should come. Who is the seed?

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I already answered this. There is a general command implicit in God's creation of Man, requiring us to obey God and to live in His image and likeness. This command was given apart from the Law of Moses which came much later in the time of national Israel.

bro.tan said:

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ. (Galatians 3:16) Who is the SEED? CHRIST! So, this law was added (which is the sacrificial law) until Christ came. What was the sacrificial law used for until Christ came? Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:24)

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Yes, as I said the Law of Moses was preparatory for Christ's Covenant.

bro.tan said:

The sacrificial law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Before we continue, we must clear one thing up. Are we justified by faith alone? Let's see. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31) What law is established? Certainly not the sacrificial law, we have seen above that it was added because of transgression until the Seed came (which was Christ). The Royal law to be established forever which are the Ten Lords commandments!

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Paul was speaking of establishing the testimony of the Law *before* Christ came. The Law was validated "as a schoolmater" leading to Christ. You have a very warped view of interpreting Paul, in my estimation. I hope you will reconsider.

bro.tan said:

Prove it not, according to the word of God.

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If you want to know, you should search it out. Actually I'm surprised, the other post also, that you don't know the passages I'm drawing from.

In this instance, the thief, having intentioned to steal, committing the act, when he is caught, he must restore fourfold, and he is not stoned to death.

The liar, the one who falsely testifies against his neighbor, receives the same punishment as they sought to inflict, whether it be death or something else.

If you do not know these passages, you should find them so you can learn them.

Much love!

bro.tan said:

Now, let's back up in this chapter to the third verses and point out the two sets of laws.
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:3)

The spirit in this case is the word of God, but pay close attention to what Paul says at the end of the verse. "Are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Can we be made perfect by the flesh? What flesh is Paul talking about? Let's go to the book of Hebrews and find out.

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

The flesh Paul spoke of was the animal sacrifices. Notice what the verse says, "never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." That's pretty clear don't you think? (Maybe not to you)

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No, not to me. And I'll tell you why. You are limiting "the flesh" to a single act of worship that was looked at as "external" and not genuine. In reality, for Paul the "flesh" was an attitude that crosses over into all areas or acts of worship, and not just related to offering sacrifices. Offering sacrifices was just one example of worship that could be offered "externally" without genuine faith. There are many, many other acts of worship that can be done "in the flesh."

So, living by the Spirit and living by the Flesh have to do with how sincere our worship is. Is it just rote worship, or is it genuine spirituality? It is not locked into a single act of worship, whether sacrificing animals under the Old Covenant or offering prayers under the New Covenant. Jesus pointed out that both praying and sacrificing can be done "in the flesh," so to speak, ie can be done insincerely.

Keep in mind that the "flesh" relates to things done outside of the heart and soul of Man, while the "Spirit" has to do with our cooperation with God so as to let Him live through us. What we do is either strictly from ourselves and our own will or in partnership with God and thus things done with God's sanction.

The whole matter of Christian redemption involves the recognition that only in partnership with Christ can we benefit from his salvation. If we live by the Law, that record rightly points out that apart from the justification of Christ, our record is flawed and keeps us out of heaven. That is, if we try to continue under the Law of Moses, we are choosing to rely on our own record and ignore the fact Christ has fulfilled the hope of those under the Old Covenant to find in himself a true means of redemption.

Going back to the Law, therefore, is relying on the record of the Flesh, and ignoring its counsel to live by the Spirit. The Law did support living in partnership with God, ie in covenant relationship, but its testimony was that living in partnership with God was insufficient apart from Christ himself. Apart from living in partnership with Christ we are unable to benefit from his spotless record. As such, without him we cannot obtain eternal life.

bro.tan said:

Let's go back to Galatians chapter 3 and take note how Paul uses the word "law" but does not say this is the sacrificial law or the Commandments. But as we read further in the chapter we will see the difference between the two.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)

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As I said, the Law counselled Israel to live in relationship with God, ie in covenant relationship. It did not, however, achieve eternal redemption. Apart from Christ that would be impossible.

bro.tan said:

We have both Laws with in this verse. In the first part of the verse where it states, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:" This law is the sacrificial law, let's skip to the 13th verse and we will see this clearly. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (Galatians 3:13)

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No, these are not two different senses of the Law. Both references refer to the Law of Moses. The "works of the Law" are the same as the "curse of the Law." Israel was to obey the works of the Law even knowing that it cursed their flawed record and kept them out of heaven for the time.

bro.tan said:

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (Colossians 2:13-14)

Notice this, "He quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. Why was this law (which is the sacrificial law) contrary to us?

Notice this in Hebrews the 10th chapter; For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. That is why it was contrary to us. The sacrificial law simply could not make us perfect.

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You're right that animal sacrifices could never have perfected Israel. The Law of Moses was not just a list of things that God wanted Israel to do. It was also a condemnation of the flawed human record, calling upon Israel to look to Messiah for forgiveness. It was a frustrating place to be--to do the right things and yet recognize at the same time that the record would be flawed and disqualify from the objective, which was Eternal Life.

bro.tan said:

Let's go back into Matthew 19: 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

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Please keep in mind that Jesus is not here advocating for the idea that Man can, by good works, *earn* Eternal Life. Rather, he is saying that to receive the gift of Eternal Life from God one must enter into covenant realtionship with God, do what He requires, and then rely on Him for mercy and pardon.

bro.tan said:

We will see that the keeping of the Commandments Jesus mention wasn't the young man problem, it was something else. We do well learning from this, because it's always something we need to prove in our walk in the Lord.

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That is certainly true. The Rich Young Ruler was living in covenant relationship with God, doing His will, and yet rejecting the need to have his flaws covered by the Cross. In rejecting following Jesus he was rejecting the need to give up what Jesus himself required him to give up.

And not relying on Jesus he was unable to benefit from Jesus' flawless record and willingness to forgive. The ruler, in effect, was reserving to himself the right to disobey the word of God to his conscience. And this was not true surrender, even if a lot was devoted to God, as well.

bro.tan said:

So Jesus says if thou be perfect, that means the young was really close to being perfect...

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No, it doesn't mean that at all! Jesus was saying, quite frankly, that even with all of the good things the Ruler was doing it was completely unable to pass the threshold of Salvation. That is good, but it isn't remotely close to "perfect!"

bro.tan said:

So let's recap the story a little, the young man kept the commandments from his youth up, all most perfect, except one thing Jesus ask him to do

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The thing Jesus asked of the Young Ruler was critical, and not just "one little thing!" It is the difference between doing good things for your own reputation or doing things for Christ's reputation. We all want good deeds to be done in our society, but we don't just want them done for the political ambitions of those who want power and prestige.

bro.tan said:

, and that's is, sell all his possession and come follow him. This is about the young man heart, he did right by keeping the law from his youth up and he was bless, but his heart toward the lord was not all the way in place. See, I notice people want to use this passage for the Commandments, to say they are not good in the new testament, but really the story is not all about the Commandments at all. Some people in life are good in following orders, and do a very good job at it, but they heart can be some place else.

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Well, you're right that this story does not condemn keeping the commandments of the Law. I would never say so myself. It is obeying God's covenant to the exclusion of the spirituality that Christ brings that is critically important. Otherwise, all of this "covenant keeping" is so much reputational and self-serving. It elevates Man's record, which is flawed, instead of God's mercy, which brings us back to true righteousness.

bro.tan said:

Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

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Paul is concerned with the moral standards that had existed under the Law of Moses--those things didn't change with the coming of the New Covenant. But neither is the New Covenant endorsing keeping under the Old Covenant! Commandment keeping is as vital today as it was when the Young Ruler kept the commandments of the Law and was complimented by Jesus for it.

What is inadequate today is keeping the commandments of the Law of Moses to the exlusion of Christ himself. And when we sign off as living under the Law of Moses, we are making a choice for the Law and against Christ. The Law was designed to lead to Christ's mercy, instead of perpetuating a good record without pardon.

bro.tan said:

This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul

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And many times prior I've argued that the New Covenant is not lawless. It does not lack commandments. It does not excuse lawless living or defer, passively, to Christ as if we have no will or choice to make in terms of living by God's rules. I know some Protestants use language that seems to suggest this!

However, when we choose to live lawfully under the New Covenant it is with the express determination to rely on Christ for our righteousness, instead of relying on a system that was inadequate, temporary, and looking forward to Christ. To just do good, without relying on Christ is inadequate. To rely on ceremonial or moral law bound strictly to a preChristian Law is to reject the idea Christ has already come and provided his own moral and covenant system. It is also a legal system, although it also relies on the need for Christ's pardon.

In fact, it is more than just covenant relationship with God and doing good for Him, expecting a temporary pardon. The New Covenant, by contrast, is actually living in covenant relationship with Christ and doing his will so that the pardon is eternal and not just temporary.

bro.tan said:

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

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Yes, I memorized this back in perhaps 1972--in fact the entire book of 1 John. I'm well aware of this. And as I said I agree with you that the New Covenant is not lawless, and does not lack commandments. But it is a system quite distinct from the Law of Moses, which did not depend on Christ's mercy. It was merciful yes, but needed Christ to live out God's perfect righteousness in order to truly forgive what Man has done wrong.