Can Amils reasonably explain the following by keeping gymnastics and moving the goalpost out of it?

rwb said:

The Old Covenant faithful souls slain for the Word of God and their testimony were not crying out to God from heaven. They could not go to heaven after being killed until the promised One came to make atonement for sin and defeat death. These OC faithful souls cried out to God from the bosom of Abraham, which was what the place of the faithful dead was called in days of Old. (Lk 16:22-23)

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The suggestion that the 5th seal martyrs are exclusively OC faithful waiting in Abraham's Bosom completely breaks down when we allow the Book of Revelation to define its own vocabulary.

John does not leave the nature of this testimony up to human speculation. The phrase the word of God and the testimony is John's specific, technical signature throughout the book for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Let’s let the text define itself.

The identity link in Revelation 1:9---John defines this exact phrase in the very first chapter when describing his own imprisonment on Patmos

Revelation 1:9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ

John was not exiled for holding an OC shadow or waiting in Abraham's Bosom--he was exiled for preaching the historical, resurrected Jesus Christ. This is the exact same dual phrase used of the souls in Revelation 6:9---for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held


If there is any doubt about what the word testimony means in apocalyptic vision, the interpreting angel clearly defines it for us.

Revelation 19:10--I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

To hold the testimony is to bear witness to the completed, historical work of Jesus Christ.


This completely settles the matter. When we look at the parallel group sitting on the thrones at the beginning of the Millennium, John uses the exact same linguistic fingerprint to describe them.

Revelation 20:4---and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness(testimony)of Jesus, and for the word of God-------




The text dictates that the souls under the altar in Revelation 6 are martyred for the testimony of Jesus Christ. They are new covenant era martyrs---including those who die during the future tribulation period

Trying to force these souls back into an OC 3.5 year historical window between Christ's birth and the cross requires completely erasing John's own definitions of testimony, and forcing the beast's image into ancient history. The text plays out seamlessly---they die for Jesus, they are told to wait a little season, and they do not receive the ruling krima kingdom until the little horn beast is utterly destroyed in the burning flame.

testimony
marturia
mar-too-ree'-ah
from martuV - martus 3144; evidence given (judicially or genitive case):--record, report, testimony, witness.

Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony(marturia) of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony(marturia) of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony(marturia) which they held:

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony(marturia), the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony(marturia); and they loved not their lives unto the death

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony(marturia) of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony(marturia) of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony(marturia) of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness(marturia) of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Every single one of these verses (marturia) is meaning the testimony of Jesus. But you want us to have it meaning the testimony of OC saints. When the little season happens in the future, not to be confused with satan's little season, 2K years will have preceded it. 2K years does not equal a little season by any means. 2K years is 1/3 of the amount of time since Adam. Therefore, plenty of time for there to already be numerous NT church era martyrs before the arrival of the little season meant in Revelation 6.

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Demographics of the Church Age: The Scale of Christian Martyrdom​

If we look at church history from an objective, statistical standpoint, the claim that the fifth seal had to close in the first century because there "weren't enough New Covenant martyrs yet" completely falls apart under historical data.

Leading demographic researchers, including the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC), estimate that approximately 70 million Christians have been martyred for their faith over the past 2,000 years.

Here is how those numbers break down across church history:

• The First 19 Centuries (AD 33–1900): An estimated 25 million believers laid down their lives. This includes the early Roman persecutions, the waves of martyrdom during the missionization of Europe, and the intense global conflicts of the Reformation eras.
  
• The 20th Century (1901–2000): Strikingly, the 20th century produced more martyrs than the previous 19 centuries combined. Approximately 45 million Christians were martyred, largely under oppressive, state-enforced secular regimes, communist purges, and fascist dictatorships (such as the Soviet gulags).
  
• The 21st Century (2001–Present): The phenomenon remains a massive, ongoing physical reality. Demographers estimate that roughly 1.9 million Christians have been killed for their faith since the turn of the century (averaging tens of thousands per year in highly hostile regions). In fact, a dedicated Vatican monitoring commission recently verified over 1,700 modern cases of explicit, individual martyrdom situations documented just since the year 2000.

Truth7t7 said:

"3rd post no response"

You have a hard time understanding that those seen in Revelation 20:4-6 are "The Souls" and "The Dead" they are in the Lord's eternal realm where one day is a thousand years (Outside Of Literal Earthly Time)

A believer that died 1,000 years ago entered the Lord's eternal realm, just as the believer that dies tomorrow or one day before the Lord's second coming will enter the Lord's eternal spiritual realm where one day is a thousand years (Spiritual Eternal Realm) = Thousand Years, the Lord's eternal

You as a premillennialist want to take the words "Thousand Years" and turn it into literal earthly time in a kingdom on this earth "False"!

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I may not have read all posts in this thread yet. Sometimes I get behind because I'm focusing on other things. I still have things to focus on at home that have zero to do with this forum.

Truth7t7 said:

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle (Satans Little Season)

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

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It's certainly possible both battles could be meaning one and the same. But then again, maybe 2 battles is not absurd after all. Before the millennium, satan is deceiving the nations. During the millennium he no longer is. After the millennium he deceives the nations again. That equals 2 times he deceives the nations rather than just one time. Therefore, one battle might lead to getting cast into the pit. The other battle might lead to him getting cast into the LOF.

Amil has him deceiving the nations 1 time rather than 2 times. Amil has him deceiving the nations before, during, and after the thousand years. That equals one not 2 times. Unless Amil wants us to believe something absurd. That the past 2k years Amil calls the millennium, satan hasn't been deceiving a single nation. Amil has him battling the church spiritually nonstop throughout the millennium and his little season. Except, guess what? In Revelation 20, the battle against the church is not during the millennium, it is after the millennium.

rwb said:

Are you confusing the Apostle John with John-the-Baptist?

Do you notice in Rev 6:9 they were not beheaded for being a witness of Jesus as John says he was. John-the-Baptist, having died before the cross and resurrection would be among those under the altar because he was a Jewish fellowservant who died in faith waiting for the promised Messiah to come. JTB preached repentance from dead works because the Kingdom of heaven was at hand as proclaimed through the prophets of Old. He proclaimed what he had been taught through the law and prophets. But the Apostle John exiled to Patmos for preaching the name of Jesus, died after the cross and resurrection, therefore the gates of heaven through the advent of Christ were opened for whosoever dies in faith after the Christ's cross and resurrection. So, the Apostle John would not have to wait for Jesus to come as those of Old had.

The faithful saints of Old knew of a Messiah who would come, but they lived and died before He came to earth a man and was called Jesus.

Re 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Yes, it should settle the matter, but I doubt it will. These martyred souls, no doubt from the advent of Christ are among the martyred dead of Rev 20. But the beheaded souls lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years and within this symbolic time became martyred for their faith. Rev 20:4 is a depiction of all saints both from Old and New Covenant who were physically alive and suffered as martyrs for their faithfulness to God and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The martyred souls of Rev 20:4 are spiritually alive in heaven after physical death AFTER the advent of Christ making atonement for sin and defeating death. They are seen alive in heaven AFTER Satan was bound for a/the thousand years.



You aren't reading very well. There is no mention of Jesus Christ. Why? Because they lived and died before the coming of Christ Jesus to earth a man. They had their own trials and tribulation through the power of the beasts Daniel writes of.

Revelation 6:9 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:



You really need to take off your blinders when you read replies. You have a tendency (deliberate?) to read in part and to add what you believe as though you're accurately quoting the view of others.

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No I'm not confusing them. I'm just pointing out that John also had the testimony and that he doesn't fit OT saints who were in Abraham's Bosom. I guess your reasoning as to why you might think I'm confusing them is this. JTB lived during when Jesus was walking the earth but died before Christ had died, rose, then ascended. Therefore, logically, though JTB died after Christ was born he would have went to Abraham's Bosom upon death.

The more I think about it since even Premil has OT saints alive and in immortal bodies during the millennium, Revelation 20:4 can be broken down like such.

them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands


A) them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus = saints that have been martyred over the past 2K years, at least 70 million thus far, including JTB.

B) and for the word of God = saints that lived during OT times before Christ was even born

C) and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands = these reserved for the time of the little season, IOW during the 42 month reign of the beast that must precede the 2nd coming, IOW, great tribulation(Matthew 24:21)

As to C), no Amil can deny that their martyrdom takes place before satan is loosed, rather than, they are martyred after satan is loosed.

It is impossible that their martyrdom does not occur during the little season the martyrs in Revelation 6 are told to rest during, until it passes in the earth, and that all saints that are to be martyred, like they were, is complete.

It is equally impossible for C) to not have occurred during the 42 month reign of the beast(Rev 13).

It is also impossible that the 42 month reign of the beast can occur without it even ascending out of the pit first.

But Amils' bizarre timeline has the beast in the pit during the millennium then ascending after the millennium with satan. And they don't have one single Scripture in the entire Bible to support it. They can't use Rev 13 to support it. Rev 20:4 already has dibs on Rev 13.

The interesting thing about it, and for the word of God--this can be applied to A), B), and C). But C) can't be applied to A) nor B). Nor can A) or C) be applied to B).