Why are there viruses and diseases?

thomasleonard said:

Surely God didn't create evil things as such to flourish in the world?

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Well according to what some people believe here, it kinda has to be that way. If what they say is true and evolution can't produce the sort of biological complexity that various viruses and pathogens need to inflict diseases, and only a "designer" can do it, then unless they want to cede creative powers and authority to Satan, the only option is to believe that God intentionally and deliberately designed viruses to kill us.

If god exists, why is there viruses and diseases? What are their purpose? Surely God didn't create evil things as such to flourish in the world?

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I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isa 45:7

God creates evil -- not sin.

I have often posted about the idolatry of man's law, but now we'll talk about the purpose of it. As we know, everything the Lord allows to exist is for his purposes. Why does man's law exist? Why do people look to it for truth? It's simply because they've turned their backs on the Lord and his Law.

As of late, all you know about "virses and diseases" is what men of the world have told you via their media. Most folks reading this cannot comprehend any other reality.

When you turn your back on God, you will experience consequences.

In the plan of God, the humanist has always been God's rod to wake the sleeping disciple and get him back on course. If man is the center of 'the world,' then his jack-booted gov't thugs and forced injections are God's rod of correction to get you out of the world, to make things a hotbed of coals to where it is uncomfortable for you to stay there. So, if you're going to come out of the world, then you shed all those worldly bondages that the world has placed upon you, and you do not answer to them anymore, because your mind has been renewed in the mind of Christ (Ephesians 4:23, Colossians 3:10).

If you're in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing, and partaking of the unclean things, then that man (who you say is ungodly, doing ungodly things against you) is actually God's rod of correction to drive you back to where you should be. If you're not chastened by our Father, then you're a bastard, meaning you're a son of the world, and you will not share the privileges of God's children.

Hebrews 12:8, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

Job 5:17, "Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:"

Again, what is the purpose of man's law? It is God's rod of correction. God uses man's law to chasten his people. God uses heathens to chasten his people.

Dear reader, you know the rod of correction is even now banging on your door.

But, Psalms 125:3, "For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity."

Psalms 106:39-48, "Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions. Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance. And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them. Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand. Many times did he deliver them; but they provoked him with their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity. Nevertheless he regarded their affliction, when he heard their cry: And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies. He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives. Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise. Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD."

Ezekiel 31:11, "I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness."

Ezekiel 39:27-28, "When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen..."

So, even though you may be righteous and you're following his ways, as soon as you put your hands into iniquity, "the rod of the wicked" (that's his rod) will be there to drive you back to him.

2 Samuel 7:14, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. And when he happens to transgress, then will I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of men:"

Even though we're his son, if we walk away from his Law, he will use "the rod of men" to chasten us and drive us back to him. Gentile and Pagan armies may be God's armies. For example, the Chaldeans who destroyed Zion are called "his army" (Joel 2:11); the Assyrians are called "the rod of mine anger" (Isaiah 10:5); and the Medes under Cyrus are termed God's "sanctified ones" and "mighty ones" for his anger (Isaiah 13:3, 17). Likewise, Jacob (i.e. the nation of Israel) is the Lord's "battle ax" and "weapons of war" that he uses to chastise other nations (Jeremiah 51:20).

Proverbs 22:15, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

It is foolish to partake of the ways of the world, and "the rod of correction" will drive that from us. What's interesting is that scripture shows us how God will use the ungodly as a rod of correction, but the natural man doesn't realize that they're there for his purpose. Isaiah 10:5-15 shows that even though God will use the king of Assyria to drive his people back to him, the king doesn't know it. He boasts about how powerful he is and attributes everything to himself, but he's actually God's rod of correction, just like all governments are.

What is the purpose of God's rod of correction?

Jeremiah 5:3, "O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return."

So, we see his rod of correction is to return us to him. And we also see from this passage that there are many who will not be driven back to him by it. But don't despise his chastening.

Proverbs 3:11-12, "My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth."

It is important to understand that the purpose of God allowing "Caesar" (i.e. ungodly government) to be in power is to test and prove his children, to see if they will keep the Laws of God or the laws of the heathen (Judges 2:21; 3:4).



Whether today's wars and pestilences are real or only rumours, is irrelevant. What's important is one's response to that perceived threat.

Choose wisely.

Just a note here on the verse "s4c" quoted from Isa 45:7, " ... God creates evil ... ", this does NOT mean that that God creates "moral" evil,
in context it means that God brings disaster on those who stray from him just as it meant that God brings blessing on those who follow him.

As a person who believes in the "Full Gospel", I would say that God created the world perfect - I'm not getting into the "tohu wa bohu" debate
on creation here - so Adam and Eve lived in an uncorrupted world, no sickness and no disease.
However, after the Fall of mankind the earth and everything in it went south, and it was at this point that sickness and disease entered.

If God is light and God is good and "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom t
here is no variation or shadow due to change. Jam 1:17 ... then sickness and disease is not from God.

If God brings sickness and disease, as some say to teach people a lesson then He made a huge mistake with Jesus who healed people
if it was in fact his will that people get sick.
Also James 5:14 - 15 says,

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord
And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

So again God would be defeating his purpose of teaching someone a lesson by making them sick and then they go and get prayer and are healed.
Also, God would be defeating his objective making someone ill and then have someone who was given the "gift of healings" (1 Cor 12:9), by
the Holy Spirit come and make that person well.

And having called to him his twelve disciples, he gave to them power over unclean spirits, so as to be casting them out, and to be healing every sickness,
and every malady. Matt 10:1

I guess that God's plans to teach people lessons that day really backfired on him what with all the "72" running around making people well.

"Oh Holy Spirit, I just wish that Jesus never sent the 72 out to heal people, that guy over there and that sinner of a woman in that house was just
about to learn her lesson but now Jesus has just gone and messed up all my plans ... what am I going to do ... ah well, I guess I have to send the
devil out again".

No, nonononononono, what baloney that's not God !!!!!!!!

What am I saying ? ... Sickness is not of God, He wants people well, Acts 10:38 says,

"You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all
who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

That's right, God was with him, healing the sick not making people sick.
Hah, but isn't that contradictory to " ... God creates evil/calamity/disaster ... " as you quoted earlier on and what about the cursing's found in
Deu 28 ?

So glad you asked ... God "permits" sickness and disease but does not commission it.

God is life and light and in him is no darkness ... if I had to ask if sickness and disease were light or dark what would you say ?
Darkness of course, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Whatever proceeds from God is light and life.

Jesus said, that He came to "give us life and that more abundantly" sickness is the opposite of life isn't it ?
And He also said that He came "to do the will of the Father" and didn't do anything except God's will, so I reckon healing is part of God's will
seeing that Jesus did that all the time and gave gifts and the ability to have people healed ... right "?

No, sickness and disease is not from God let that be established, it's a result of a broken world, broken because man sinned and satan is
ultimately the author.
Though not all sickness and disease is directly from him, we can't blame him if we have a hot shower then go stand in the cold wind outside,
nor if we pursue unhealthy living.

...quoted from Isa 45:7, " ... God creates evil ... ", this does NOT mean that that God creates "moral" evil...

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Moral is an invention of men; the word is not found in scripture.

HammerStone said:

Greg Boyd, a somewhat unconventional pastor, really hit home on this one day I think. He pondered how the world's sicknesses could be the product of a broken world and and even brokeness specifically manipulated by the enemy. He went on to speculate about the manipulation of DNA (for genetic diseases) and even viruses at the hands of demons.

Of course this would enter into the fantastic for most, but I would not discount it. Some corruptions are obviously the manifestation of our own failures and wrong decisions yielding biological consequences.

Jesus clearly referred to demons at times in some things we would consider entirely medical, yet he also referred to healing sicknesses, which would suggest that they are both not meant to be (IE: not God's creation) and the product of either purely biological processes or supernatural influence.

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Isn't that what I described, i.e., ceding creative power to Satan?

sojourner4Christ said:

Moral is an invention of men; the word is not found in scripture.

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Ahem ... 1 Cor 15:33 ... Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

Greek word used is :

éthos: custom

Original Word: ἦθος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: éthos
Phonetic Spelling: (ay'-thos)
Short Definition: habit, manner, custom, morals
Definition: habit, manner, custom, morals.

Ahem ... 1 Cor 15:33 ... Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

Greek word used is :

éthos: custom

Original Word: ἦθος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: éthos
Phonetic Spelling: (ay'-thos)
Short Definition: habit, manner, custom, morals
Definition: habit, manner, custom, morals.

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This is an example of the confusion wrought by copyrighted inventions of men.

In your response, you have referenced a word ("morals") from a copyrighted owned-by-men modern version of The Holy Bible. Your word and its purported definition are derived not from the word itself, but from Thayer's one-man Greek lex-icon.

J. Henry Thayer, author of the New Thayer's Greek Lexicon, was a Unitarian who vehemently denied the diety of Christ. Thayer was also the dominant member of the ASV committe! His lexicon contains a seldom noticed warning by the publisher in its introduction (p. vii). It cautions readers to watch for adulterations in the work relating to the deity of Christ and the Trinity.

The great body of evidence (over 99.9% of all manuscripts and autographs), aka the Majority Text, of which the King James Bible is sourced, says this:

Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 1 Cor. 15:33 AV

Advice: Use the built-in dictionary of the Holy Bible (AV) to uncover the definitions of words, and avoid the tempting one-man-band, once-removed-from-the-truth lex-icons of unsaved men.

Moral is an invention of men; the word is not found in scripture.

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sojourner4Christ said:

This is an example of the confusion wrought by copyrighted inventions of men.

In your response, you have referenced a word ("morals") from a copyrighted owned-by-men modern version of The Holy Bible. Your word and its purported definition are derived not from the word itself, but from Thayer's one-man Greek lex-icon.

J. Henry Thayer, author of the New Thayer's Greek Lexicon, was a Unitarian who vehemently denied the diety of Christ. Thayer was also the dominant member of the ASV committe! His lexicon contains a seldom noticed warning by the publisher in its introduction (p. vii). It cautions readers to watch for adulterations in the work relating to the deity of Christ and the Trinity.

The great body of evidence (over 99.9% of all manuscripts and autographs), aka the Majority Text, of which the King James Bible is sourced, says this:

Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 1 Cor. 15:33 AV

Advice: Use the built-in dictionary of the Holy Bible (AV) to uncover the definitions of words, and avoid the tempting one-man-band, once-removed-from-the-truth lex-icons of unsaved men.


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Quite honestly I don't much care for Thayers past, beliefs etc., that does not interest me ... he was still a Greek scholar and that fact does.
Besides his errors would be obvious if you pay attention to what he says, that is why if you are a good student of the word you spend the extra
time and effort cross-referencing what you study.

And that is all really besides the point anyway, "ethos" essentially means: manners, habits, morals, attitudes and beliefs all of which pertain
to a persons characteristics and attitudes ... their approved habits, their moral values.

That is why many translators of the Bible used the word "morals" because that is what it means.

Hence, my quote specifically from a Bible translation that uses it.

Your reference from the KJV (a Bible translation that I support), translates the word "ethos" as manners, which means exactly the same thing,
the mannerisms or habits or moral outlook of a person.
I'm sure that if it was so wrong they would never have used it ... you're just splitting hairs and that doesn't interest me.

W. E Vine says the same thing ... "primarily "a haunt, abode," then, "a custom, manner," occurs in the plural in 1 Corinthians 15:33 , i.e., ethical
conduct morals".

Besides, the words "manners, character and morals", are English words anyway and each word does not fully convey the entire meaning of the word
that's why some have used them interchangeably as they saw fit.

Lastly, this has no bearing on the discussion at hand ... it's about sickness and disease ... and God is not the author of it, it entered directly after
the Fall.
The purpose, if I can say it that way of sickness and disease is to break down and destroy.
Why would God create something like this world and then slip in a negative at the same time to destroy it ... that just does not make sense.

If you or I build, make or create something, we do our best to make it perfect, we try to ensure that there are no defects so that it gets
the job done.
Only a fool would make something with a negative component contained within it's makeup that is counterproductive to it's purpose.
And God is no fool.
A cow produces milk and no matter how much you chase it around the farm you're not going to get milkshake because that's
all it can make.
In the same fashion, God is good and therefore only good would proceed from him ... unless a person believes that God has both
good and bad in himself.
Does anyone believe that God has both good and bad in him ?

Your reference from the KJV (a Bible translation that I support), translates the word "ethos" as manners, which means exactly the same thing,

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Any dictionary proves otherwise.

I'm sure that if it was so wrong they would never have used it ... you're just splitting hairs and that doesn't interest me.

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...Yea, hath God said...? -- Gen 3:1 AV

HammerStone said:

I am not comfortable with calling it creation. I'd term it more corruption, which Satan would seem to do quite well in that category. He would not be necessarily creating anything new rather than attempting to destroy what God created. That distinction made, then I would be satisfied.

With that said, I suppose Isaiah 45:7 could be interpreted to mean that God was their direct author. However, in the context of the entire passage, it seems more likely that God is saying that he'll let the Cyrus figures of the world bring us down if need be.

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Well, I guess you have to know about the specific genetics and biochemistry behind the virulence. There's nothing indicating that the sequences and pathways are "corrupted" versions of something else. They're just as intricate and complex as other biological features that creationists like to point to as examples of "God's wonderful and complex creation" and things that "evolution couldn't possibly have produced".

So if we grant the creationist argument that those things are too complex and intricate for evolution to produce, and only a "designer" can do it, then we either have to believe that God deliberately created some truly horrendous things, or that Satan is just as much a "designer" as God.

The "corrupted creation" thing seems to me to be a post hoc assertion that relies on the audience not knowing the biology behind the viruses and pathogens we're talking about.

1st Corinthians 14 "satan is the author of confusion"
God created the angel of light "lucifer", who rebelled against God and became the adversary "satan"..the author of evil...God protects His people from "lucifer" to the degree that you draw close to God..James 4..
My thoughts on this disease bacteria/virus thing..God has made the conditions right for these organisms to grow and flourish, His hands hold them back..God is building an army of His people on earth to inherit His eternal kingdom. If we draw close and follow God, we will be protected..if we do not then satan will be allowed to inflict his damage through disease, and all the other evils on mankind, which we are seeing now..the Book of Job sums it up, when God tested Job with the lost of everything, He allowed satan to do the damage short of taking Job's life..Job would not "curse God and die"..Job was true to God, and was blessed with more in the end...
In conclusion God is the creator of everything and everyone...He allows things to happen to us, good and bad dependent on our degree of love and loyalty we have to Him...satan is allowed only the freedoms God allows him to have.

HammerStone said:

Greg Boyd, a somewhat unconventional pastor, really hit home on this one day I think. He pondered how the world's sicknesses could be the product of a broken world and and even brokeness specifically manipulated by the enemy. He went on to speculate about the manipulation of DNA (for genetic diseases) and even viruses at the hands of demons.

Of course this would enter into the fantastic for most, but I would not discount it. Some corruptions are obviously the manifestation of our own failures and wrong decisions yielding biological consequences.

Jesus clearly referred to demons at times in some things we would consider entirely medical, yet he also referred to healing sicknesses, which would suggest that they are both not meant to be (IE: not God's creation) and the product of either purely biological processes or supernatural influence.

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That is, by far, the very best and most common sense explanation I have ever heard.

HammerStone said:

You're approaching this with the assumption that these viruses would show the molecular equivalent of a tag sporting "Designed by Wormtongue for Satan Ind." on them.

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???????? I have no idea where you got that from.

Unfortunately, you're making the error of assuming the material existence of something is all there is to know about it. If it were that simple, God would be too easy to believe in because all I would need is the right formula or law. I'm afraid we'll never see eye to eye on this and I am quite comfortable with you thinking that I am as backwoods fundamentalist as you would like.

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Again, I have no idea how you got that from my last post. I'm simply taking the creationist argument "complexity = design" and applying it to things that while nasty and horrible, are also just as complex as bacterial flagella, vertebrate eyes, and immune systems.

I'm also unaware of the link that necessitates corruption implying an increase in simplicity. In fact, corruptions of almost anything generally result in a more complicated reality, such as how little white lies always seem to necessitate more lying and scheming to cover up the previous lie. Corruptions, by the very connotation of the word imply that something is being hidden or someone is being deceived. This would often result in increased complexity.

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Then you have just negated intelligent design creationism's primary argument. If complexity =/= design, then they really have no argument.

Also, unfortunately, this is not at all required what I submitted. In the paradox of creation, God created a system (call it what you will) which worked in a certain manner. The rules of that system are quite defined (and limited) by God simply because if we hold the Christian definition of God, he must possess omnipotence or at least incomprehensible knowledge and control of it. God would need to possess this regardless of Christian Theism or Creationism. Any significant statement of Scripture addressing the beginning states that God had some idea as to what he was doing (eg. I Peter 1:20).

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That takes us into areas waaaaaaaay beyond viruses and pathogens (e.g., did God create Adam and Eve knowing they would fail, and then punish them for failing). But let's try and stay on topic for this thread.

If you desire to move into the realm of Deism or Pantheism, then you are quite welcome to do that, but let's just not play the game that this does not possess consequences beyond the scientific.

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No one's doing that.

There is nothing that proves the scientific lens of viewing the world is the only or even primary lens in which to view the world. It is an excellent and valuable lens, and certainly not to be neglected, but biasing science over and above all else is only a slightly more intelligent error than the worst fundie's error.

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It's a good thing no one here is doing that.

If sickness is a condition brought on by iniquity only, then Stephen Hawking would appear to have gotten his due, since he's an unbeliever, right? I believe, even the saintliest person becomes ill, even severely ill. After all, something must eventually take us home.

Did viruses come as a result of one man's sin? That's a bit hard to believe. Did only Adam's sin have such widespread consequences, or does my sin today have an equally global repercussion? Not hardly. For whether a man stands or falls, he does it all before the Lord alone.

No matter what sick or afflicted person you wish to place in this equation, whether believer or nonbeliever, that they got that way due to the sin of another, i.e. Adam's personal sinfulness, seems to be unsupported in Scripture. Because of those two fools, we all pay?