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waquinas

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Apr 24, 2008
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(jeffhughes;60555)
To add a bit to Theophage's answer, I would say that it is not that we live or exist that is good or bad, but how we live or exist. I would have a difficult time saying that it is "better" that Hitler existed, but I would have no difficulty saying that it was "better" that someone like Mother Teresa, or any other person who has made the world a better place, existed. For those who contribute to the well-being of others, I think that we can say it was better that they existed. Of course, since all this must be done in hindsight, it may not make much of a difference, but I think it is intuitively how most humans perceive life, at least at a basic level.
How do we know that if there had not been a Hitler that we would have a Mother Teressa?Your correct in pointing out a difference. In my worldview it is good that things are the way they are, including the Hitlers. And we are talking in a universal/global sense, not for an individual life. It would be easy to look at a single life in WWII Germany and say it would have been better for that individual had Hitler never existed. However it does not follow that a better world would exist today had Hitler never been born. We cannot say or possibly know that.If this world were not good exactly the way it (as opposed to some other way) and the best possible world given what has past, then in my view things would be different (no Hitler for one example). Just because we cannot see the good that could come from something like a Hitler, does not mean it does not exist. Nor could we possibly say we know it would be "better" without a Hitler. Am not sure why "how we live" should matter if there is no basis/answer for saying it is good that we live at all. If I cannot look at others and say like me that it is good that they exist too, then what is the value of that life to me really, other than what that life can do for me or my interests? It just seems to me that there is no basis for saying there is a better way to live, if living/existence (including that of all others) has no intrinsic value to me. I can understand acting for self preservation and a desire to be happy, but am uncertain how those things alone would arrive at a better way for all of us to live. If I say how I live my life matters, yet existence is meaningless to me there seems to be a discord. Why does how I live matter? Does how I live matter to you?
 

Christina

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Apr 10, 2006
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if there had been no Hitler there would have been No State of Israel and sense God predicted 2000 years ago that the state of Israel had to bloom again in the End of Days Any bible reader knew this would happen long before it did in 1948 So claim what you will , reason what you like, but you will choose a godJust as God said Israel will return as nation and it came to pass the generation that witnessed the State of Israel form will not all pass away before Christ returns. Thats his promise. And it will be done as God can not lie. So carry on in your little world of men's reasoning and Wagers and philosophy. Even the concept of Atheism proves there is a God why else is it so important that one must make a religion out of claiming there is no god. I dont know many people that make a religion out of proving Leprechauns don't exist Atheism is a religion by defenition, Same as Buddism is classiefied as a religion yet it has no god it is a path one walks to gain Nirvanah
 

Lunar

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Nov 23, 2007
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Follower: I'd love to continue debating Pascal's Wager with you, but it's been requested by the administrators and the thread starter that we stop.
 

jeffhughes

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Jul 27, 2008
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(Christina;60557)
Jeff I notice on your profile you claim to be a Christian you either were not being truthful or you have christianity confused with atheism.
My mistake. I came here as a Christian - one struggling for answers, but still a Christian - but the past few months have involved an incredible shift in beliefs for me. I have now changed it to better reflect my new beliefs (if "Other" can really do that justice").(waquinas;60561)
How do we know that if there had not been a Hitler that we would have a Mother Teressa?Your correct in pointing out a difference. In my worldview it is good that things are the way they are, including the Hitlers. And we are talking in a universal/global sense, not for an individual life. It would be easy to look at a single life in WWII Germany and say it would have been better for that individual had Hitler never existed. However it does not follow that a better world would exist today had Hitler never been born. We cannot say or possibly know that.
While there is a degree of uncertainty as you point out, I'm not sure that it's as uncertain as you make it out to be. I am not talking about "If Hitler never existed, then the world would be a better place" - you're right, we don't know that. But "better" or "worse" are incredibly vague terms to begin with, so perhaps the whole issue is kind of....ambiguous. I think that, to a certain extent, we can define a person's "goodness" or "badness" based on their actions. Hitler, in this case, was a "bad" person, while Mother Teresa, or any person whose life is committed to helping others, would be considered a "good" person. Most of us would hover around the middle, but on my optimistic days, I'd say that most people hover more towards the "good" end of the spectrum. Now I'd like not to get into the argument about an atheist's basis for morality - that's another issue. I'm simply stating that "good" people are better to have around than "bad" people.Perhaps Hitler in some way "caused" Mother Teresa. Fine. Then we have discovered that bad has brought about good. But good and bad things will always occur, and with equal uncertainty, we cannot say that the non-existence of Hitler would not have caused some greater good, even better than a Mother Teresa, to occur. Like, say, the survival of several million Jews, and the non-occurrence of a second World War. But I think it's understood that good things will occur in this world, and bad things will occur in this world, and we, as humans, would like more of the former than the latter. Thus, every person, with every action they do, contributes to either making the world a better place, or making it a worse place. A person who commits their life to destroying this world and making it worse, yes, I think I'd be justified in saying it would likely be better had they not existed. To say "Well we don't know" is true to an extent, but you're asking how we can know, not how we can't. What I'm stating is a rough measure, but I think it's as good as we're going to get. Unless of course, you believe that every action has been completely planned out by some all-seeing being, which runs into its own problems that I won't get into here (but if you'd like to talk about it, there are a couple other threads here that deal with such things
tongue.gif
).(waquinas;60561)
Am not sure why "how we live" should matter if there is no basis/answer for saying it is good that we live at all.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure either. It's kind of an existential idea that I sort of came up with on the spot. But it's the idea that we form our own purpose, and that we determine our own destiny. I think it works, to a certain extent, but I haven't completely thought it through lol.(Christina;60562)
if there had been no Hitler there would have been No State of Israel and sense God predicted 2000 years ago that the state of Israel had to bloom again in the End of Days
I revolt at the idea of an omnipotent God who has to use evil, fascist dictators that slaughter millions of people, in order to accomplish his plans, but okay. You seem to indicate that the formation of the nation of Israel is a good thing, even though it has caused constant strife and warfare ever since. Why would you consider this good?(Christina;60562)
Just as God said Israel will return as nation and it came to pass the generation that witnessed the State of Israel form will not all pass away before Christ returns. Thats his promise. And it will be done as God can not lie. So carry on in your little world of men's reasoning and Wagers and philosophy.
Well, then we shall have to wait and see. I would continue talking about the rest of your post, but I fear that it would turn into yet another fruitless argument. So let's stick to the discussion.
 

Christina

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Apr 10, 2006
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I revolt at the idea of an omnipotent God who has to use evil, fascist dictators that slaughter millions of people, in order to accomplish his plans, but okay. You seem to indicate that the formation of the nation of Israel is a good thing, even though it has caused constant strife and warfare ever since. Why would you consider this good?(quote)Thats the problem with the world no one wants to take responsability.God didnt do anything he allowed men to use their free will to do as they will dobecause he knew they would do it He warned of it he gave us laws to follow so that this would not occur but men think they dont have to listen it was in fact those who didnt beleive in God hated Gods chosen people that did this Yet you blame God ?? and then wonder why you have lost your faith ?? Whats your answer? to turn to the very type mentality an join with those men that put their faith in men and caused this its that faith in men and not turning to God that will cause the events of the End times God will just allow us to destroy ourselves so you joined the wrong side. You have become part of the problem not the solution.