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Christina

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Thats makes absoultly no sense to me if Im wrong and there is no God what possable difference could it make what I believe..... if there is no God I will die rot and what I thought and believe amounts to zero.... No God ....No heaven zero ...I dont get your logic
 

Lunar

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(Christina;60444)
Thats makes absoultly no sense to me if Im wrong and there is no God what possable difference could it make what I believe..... if there is no God I will die rot and what I thought and believe amounts to zero.... No God ....No heaven zero ...I dont get your logic
I'm sorry you misunderstood. Let me try to explain again.If you are wrong about believing in the Christian God, and it turns out there is no God, then yes, you will simply rot in the ground, and nothing horrible really becomes of you. If, however, you are wrong about believing in the Christian God, and it turns out that Krishna is the real God, then you are in big trouble - just as much trouble as the atheist.
 

jeffhughes

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EDIT: Goodness, looks like jeffhughes got here before me. Seems like this was slightly redundant.
Nah, not redundant. Complementary
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Haha, although yours, of course, is much more clear, as well as more concise. Oh well. I try
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At any rate, perhaps it might be fruitful to post an actual description of Pascal's Wager. It can then be referred to so that perhaps both sides can at least come to an agreement about what it is about, whether or not it's good or bad argumentation. Here's one fairly simple explanation:pascal's Wager can be presented in many different forms, usually something like this:"If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything."Alternatively :"It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If He does not exist, you have lost nothing either way. "(source: http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html )Note that there is no distinction as to what God of what religion he is talking about. Nor is there appeal to evidence - even on which to base the assumption that God rewards belief.
 

Christina

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But that isnt what I said nor the question we are discussing I simply said if 1.A God 2.No God 50 50 chance one is right or wrong it is only if one choose #1 that any sub factors come into play which has nothing to do with what I said. I said you have a 50/50 chance of being right
 

Lunar

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(Christina;60452)
But that isnt what I said nor the question we are discussing I simply said if 1.A God 2.No God 50 50 chance one is right or wrong it is only if one choose #1 that any sub factors come into play which has nothing to do with what I said. I said you have a 50/50 chance of being right
No, you said this:(Christina)
So the facts are you and I both have 50/50 % chance of being rightThe difference is if you are wrong it cost you your soulIf Im wrong it costs me nothing except having to listen to people like you tell me Im wrong.
You are talking not just about whether you are right, but what the rewards are for being right. Particularly, whether you go to heaven or hell, or whether you simply die and rot in the ground (and have to deal with angry atheists telling you that you're wrong). So picking the right God has everything to do with what you said, because if you pick the wrong God, you could lose your soul.
 

Christina

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I said nothing of rewards I said if Im wrong my punishment is nothing because there is nothing to punish me because zero god is zero punishmentI said if you are wrong and IF there is a God you will have a price to pay that stil a 50 50 chance either way
 

Christina

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Your assuming that if there is a God choosing to be a Christian theres a chance I could be wrong (which has nothing to do with 50/50) but what most non believers fail to understand is God is the God of all men atheists,Christian, Jew, gentile, black yellew white,short and tall, young and old he has simply laid out 10 laws for man to live by called commandements because they are for our own good and happieness.How one choose's to worship this God or any god is called religion
 

Lunar

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I said nothing of rewards I said if Im wrong my punishment is nothing because there is nothing to punish me because zero god is zero punishment
But if you pick God and picked the wrong God, you will also be punished.You may think that God is the god of all religions, but let's not kid ourselves - if you worship Krishna, and it turns out the Christian God is the real one, you're not going to heaven.
 

Christina

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There is only one God of all you can not pick when there is only one thats why three million religions can spring from a belief in God God has no religion men have religions
 

Lunar

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There is only one God of all you can not pick when there is only one thats why three million religions can spring from a belief in God God has no religion men have religions
Christina, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem here. It is a problem of belief. There may be one God, but clearly there are many different beliefs about which God is right, and we don't know which one to choose. That's the very source of confusion.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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(Christina;60460)
There is only one God of all you can not pick when there is only one thats why three million religions can spring from a belief in GodGod has no religion men have religions
Christina, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem here. It is a problem of belief. There may be one God, but clearly there are many different beliefs about which God is right, and we don't know which one to choose. That's the very source of confusion.That's the problem. There is only 1 God. God created us. All other gods are made by a human which is meaningless and has no purpose for the end.
 

Christina

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It is your confusion God has no religion he is the God of all he has 10 laws period Religion is of man not God the way one chooses to worship that God, or not, is a matter of choice if that choice breaks a law you will pay a price the price depends on the Law broken as each individual is judged by their heart not their church.
 

Lunar

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It is your confusion God has no religion he is the God of all he has 10 laws period Religion is of man not God the way one chooses to worship that God, or not, is a matter of choice if that choice breaks a law you will pay a price the price depends on the Law broken as each individual is judged by their heart not their church.
Now you're speaking under the assumption that Christianity is true. Isn't that exactly what we were just trying to prove?Circular reasoning, again.Obviously, of course, you believe in Christianity. But that doesn't enrich this discussion at all, when what we have been trying to establish is whether the wager is a good one. If we can only know that the wager is a good one given that Christianity is true, then the wager is pointless.
 

Christina

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It has nothing to do with being Christian it is believing in the one God it is you who can not see past your prejudices. If you break a law of God say like practicing Wicka you have broken a Law "thou shall have no other Gods before me" That is the Law of the God it is a law followed by all religions that believe in One God As a Christian I believe the Holy Bible tells me how to worship the one God to obtain salvation, as a Christian I simply believe we are all born sinners and God has sent his Son as way for us to be forgiven for our sins.If I were Muslim I would believe the Quran tells me how to worship the one God, and that Christ was a great prophet, that will return with the Mahdi (Islamic messiah) True as Christians we believe the Quran was written by men and is wrong.but that doesnt change the fact that God is the God of Muslims and everyone else. You have free will not to be a Christian you can even choose not to believe in God but that doesnt change the fact he is your God whether you acknowledge him or not.In fact if a non believer followed all the Laws (commandments )of God to a tee and a believer ignored them all and intentionally breaks them Id say you got a better chance than him as you are judged by your heart. Same as the believer. Satan himself believes in God yet he is a Law breaker and is condemned to death.You will never understand til you learn God and religion are not the sameHavent you ever heard people say I believe in God, but I dont believe in religion? Gods Laws are for all men Religion is a more specific set of beliefs of how to worship God.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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(Christina;60463)
It is your confusion God has no religion he is the God of all he has 10 laws periodReligion is of man not God the way one chooses to worship that God, or not, is a matter of choice if that choice breaks a law you will pay a price the price depends on the Law broken as each individual is judged by their heart not their church.
Now you're speaking under the assumption that Christianity is true. Isn't that exactly what we were just trying to prove?Circular reasoning, again.Obviously, of course, you believe in Christianity. But that doesn't enrich this discussion at all, when what we have been trying to establish is whether the wager is a good one. If we can only know that the wager is a good one given that Christianity is true, then the wager is pointless.If you would get off religion for a minute, you would understand what she is saying...
 

jeffhughes

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(Christina;60465)
It has nothing to do with being Christian it is believing in the one God it is you who can not see past your prejudices. If you break a law of God say like practicing Wicka you have broken a Law "thou shall have no other Gods before me"
You're already assuming here that there is only one God. What if the Greek pantheon truly exists? Or the Hindu pantheon of gods? You can't already assume that there is only one God or you've already demonstrated circular reasoning. You're right, it has nothing to do with Christianity - but it has everything to do with belief vs. truth.(Christina;60465)
That is the Law of the God it is a law followed by all religions that believe in One God
But it's not believed by all religions, by any means of the word. And there are many, many religions that do not believe in one God. Again, circular reasoning on your part. You can't assume that there is one God and then use Pascal's Wager, or any other argument, to prove that. If the Greek pantheon exists, then the "Law of God" is bunk. We can throw it out. In fact, they might punish you for following those laws.(Christina;60465)
As a Christian I believe the Holy Bible tells me how to worship the one God to obtain salvation, as a Christian I simply believe we are all born sinners and God has sent his Son as way for us to be forgiven for our sins.
Great. And if it turns out Islam is correct, you're going to hell. You most likely have never made a trip to Mecca, and you've most likely never fasted during Ramadan. Even if there is only one God, there are different beliefs about what his rules are for who gets to heaven and who doesn't. Thus, essentially we can say that these are two different "gods". One is a Christian-type "God-who-justifies-through-faith-alone", and another is a Muslim-type "God-who-saves-through-obedience-to-five-pillars-of-Islam". Either way, if you pick the wrong beliefs, and if it turns out to be the other God, then you lose.(Christina;60465)
If I were Muslim I would believe the Quran tells me how to worship the one God, and that Christ was a great prophet, that will return with the Mahdi (Islamic messiah)
But you miss all the other aspects of Islam here. This is not Islam. You're only pointing out the few similarities between Islam and Christianity, and ignoring all the vast differences.(Christina;60465)
True as Christians we believe the Quran was written by men and is wrong.but that doesnt change the fact that God is the God of Muslims and everyone else.
Do you believe Muslims are going to heaven? If you do, you at least disagree with many, many Christians on the matter. If you don't, then why does this argument about it being the "same God" matter at all in terms of Pascal's Wager?(Christina;60465)
You have free will not to be a Christian you can even choose not to believe in God but that doesnt change the fact he is your God whether you acknowledge him or not.
I don't think anyone's disputing this. Other than the whole "belief as a choice" thing, but I think we've moved on from that.(Christina;60465)
In fact if a non believer followed all the Laws (commandments )of God to a tee and a believer ignored them all and intentionally breaks them Id say you got a better chance than him as you are judged by your heart. Same as the believer. Satan himself believes in God yet he is a Law breaker and is condemned to death.
So are we justified by faith or by works? At any rate, the laws that Christians follow and the laws that Muslims follow are, in many ways, very different. As pointed out by the whole Ramadan and Mecca thing. So following one set of laws won't necessarily get you into heaven if the other laws are the correct ones.(Christina;60465)
You will never understand til you learn God and religion are not the sameHavent you ever heard people say I believe in God, but I dont believe in religion? Gods Laws are for all men Religion is a more specific set of beliefs of how to worship God.
You're essentially trying to boil all gods together into one pot and say "it's all the same God". But this is silly. Each religion states that their God(s) has a certain nature, and certain likes and dislikes. The Christian God very much dislikes disbelief. But this is not the case for all the gods of all the religions. The Greek gods had very wide-ranging likes and dislikes, and didn't necessarily care about the whole disbelief thing. The Hindu gods care about following certain paths and doing your duty and karma, and all that stuff. These are all fundamentally different ways of looking at God. If they are all still the same God, then God has a severe case of multiple personality disorder.The point is, however, that whatever God truly exists has a specific set of character qualities and a specific set of rules that he wants you to follow. I think the Christian God would frown very much upon someone following Taoism as a way of trying to get to heaven. But if it turns out that the Taoist God exists, then heck, they've done a great job! By saying "it's all the same God" you're eliminating that distinct character which each religion ascribes to their God. Most religions don't have a faceless, nameless, blank God with no wants or desires. It's only in this sort of case that you could make your argument work.
 

Theophage

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So....I take it no one else has questions then?I really didn't want to use this thread to argue for one point of view or the other. It's one thing to clarify a point, it is another to argue that someone is wrong.I think all this arguing is derailing this thread.
 

HammerStone

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So....I take it no one else has questions then?I really didn't want to use this thread to argue for one point of view or the other. It's one thing to clarify a point, it is another to argue that someone is wrong.I think all this arguing is derailing this thread.
Please respect these wishes, all. If you guys want to argue/debate on your own, feel free to carry it to PM or another thread. The OP has some say in where his/her thread goes!
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Thank ya!
 

Christina

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You're already assuming here that there is only one God. What if the Greek pantheon truly exists? Or the Hindu pantheon of gods? You can't already assume that there is only one God or you've already demonstrated circular reasoning. You're right, it has nothing to do with Christianity - but it has everything to do with belief vs. truth.But it's not believed by all religions, by any means of the word. And there are many, many religions that do not believe in one God. Again, circular reasoning on your part. You can't assume that there is one God and then use Pascal's Wager, or any other argument, to prove that. If the Greek pantheon exists, then the "Law of God" is bunk. We can throw it out. In fact, they might punish you for following those laws.Great. And if it turns out Islam is correct, you're going to hell. You most likely have never made a trip to Mecca, and you've most likely never fasted during Ramadan. Even if there is only one God, there are different beliefs about what his rules are for who gets to heaven and who doesn't. Thus, essentially we can say that these are two different "gods". One is a Christian-type "God-who-justifies-through-faith-alone", and another is a Muslim-type "God-who-saves-through-obedience-to-five-pillars-of-Islam". Either way, if you pick the wrong beliefs, and if it turns out to be the other God, then you lose.But you miss all the other aspects of Islam here. This is not Islam. You're only pointing out the few similarities between Islam and Christianity, and ignoring all the vast differences.Do you believe Muslims are going to heaven? If you do, you at least disagree with many, many Christians on the matter. If you don't, then why does this argument about it being the "same God" matter at all in terms of Pascal's Wager?I don't think anyone's disputing this. Other than the whole "belief as a choice" thing, but I think we've moved on from that.So are we justified by faith or by works? At any rate, the laws that Christians follow and the laws that Muslims follow are, in many ways, very different. As pointed out by the whole Ramadan and Mecca thing. So following one set of laws won't necessarily get you into heaven if the other laws are the correct ones.You're essentially trying to boil all gods together into one pot and say "it's all the same God". But this is silly. Each religion states that their God(s) has a certain nature, and certain likes and dislikes. The Christian God very much dislikes disbelief. But this is not the case for all the gods of all the religions. The Greek gods had very wide-ranging likes and dislikes, and didn't necessarily care about the whole disbelief thing. The Hindu gods care about following certain paths and doing your duty and karma, and all that stuff. These are all fundamentally different ways of looking at God. If they are all still the same God, then God has a severe case of multiple personality disorder.The point is, however, that whatever God truly exists has a specific set of character qualities and a specific set of rules that he wants you to follow. I think the Christian God would frown very much upon someone following Taoism as a way of trying to get to heaven. But if it turns out that the Taoist God exists, then heck, they've done a great job! By saying "it's all the same God" you're eliminating that distinct character which each religion ascribes to their God. Most religions don't have a faceless, nameless, blank God with no wants or desires. It's only in this sort of case that you could make your argument work.
No it is you who have missed the point from my orginal post Im not arguing any of this I said all religions with one God understand God has laws all religions with more than one God have broke the first law of know other Gods before me therefore they are not religions of the one God none of which changes my orginal post that to be an atheist you have a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong all this nit picking and Wager stuff is nothing but smoke and mirrors and unrelated to my statement which is a fact perhaps you non believers do not like the 50 50 odds so you are trying to confuse the issue 1.A God 2. No God 50/ 50% those are your odds