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  1. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    When referring to hell, its fire, a lake of fire. Which is forever.. Matt 25:41 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;NASB 2 Thess 1:8-9 8 dealing out retribution to those who...
  2. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    When the body dies, does the spirit stay inside of it? Or does the spirit go somewhere else? After the 2nd death when the lost are thrown into the lake of fire they are separated from God, for eternity. Separation or absence? Whats the difference? Or are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
  3. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    Do you think death is something else? I'd love to hear your definition.
  4. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    Death simply means separation, not annihilation. The first death, our spirit from our bodies. The second death, the spirit from God...for eternity.
  5. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    So your argument is that people with their sins atoned for by Jesus can wind up in hell? What kind of gospel is that?
  6. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    Actually batting 100 is awful. So hes awful at falsehood....nice compliment. Now if he batted 1000, well then you might have said what you were trying to say. I'd take 100 at falsehood.
  7. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    Will there be anyone in hell? I guess we can start there.
  8. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    How am i changing the bible? Do you even read the references i cite? Do you know the word 'world' i.e. cosmos has numerous meanings depending on the context. Gal 6:14 14 But may it never be that I should boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been...
  9. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    You forgot a verse; John 1:12 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,NASB Jesus' death isn't applied to anyone apart from faith. His blood must be appropriated and applied just like way back when at the first...
  10. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    Only those that believe have peace with God. All others are under His wrath.
  11. Nondenom40

    The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

    She suffered as a mother watching her child die on a cross. She didn't suffer as co-redeemer or co-mediator or any other 'co' catholics can conjure up. Yes, because thats exactly what the text says. John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing...
  12. Nondenom40

    The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

    I'm sure we've been through this here as well as on other boards. Nowhere is mary called queen. Again this is an appeal to emotion as its found nowhere in Gods written word.
  13. Nondenom40

    The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

    This is an appeal to emotion, not scripture. God didn't spare His own Son whom He had been with in eternity past. Mary has a higher place than that? Doubtful. And people certainly touched mary so your analogy goes exactly nowhere.
  14. Nondenom40

    The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

    Good verse. Catholics should memorize it and apply it to their flawed theology. Jesus is repeatedly said to be without sin, sinless...very clear, no ambiguity. Where are the equally clear verses regarding marys sin free life? Nowhere thats where. Shoehorning a definition into a word isn't of God...
  15. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    Youre actually making the argument for ps. Youre right, Christ is the propitiation for your sins. And right again that propitiation has wrath in view in that Jesus satisfied Gods wrath, in our place. This IS substitutional penal atonement. No one has argued that we don't die and face judgement...
  16. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    Wrath is very real and its consequences are eternal for those whom it abides. Jesus took it for those who are His. He satisfied Gods justice as sin must be dealt with. This is the whole idea behind propitiation and expiation. Penal substitution is very biblical.
  17. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    Words mean things in different contexts don't they? Look up the greek word eis as an example. It has many uses depending on the context. In the context of Isa 53 which is a wonderful messianic prophecy it speaks of being healed by His stripes. The Lord has laid upon Him the iniquity of us...
  18. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    Tell us what scripture actually says according to you. Here is but one commentary on the verse. There are others. Seems to me that chastisement really means what it says. But this aside. What do you do with the fact that the people of God are at peace with God and not under His wrath? I asked...
  19. Nondenom40

    Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

    Personally i don't think penal substitutional atonement has to be terribly hard to understand. Apart from Jesus we bear the wrath of God. Those in Christ do not bear the wrath of God. For those who are saved, where did the wrath go? Jesus took it for us. We broke Gods law, i.e. we've sinned...
  20. Nondenom40

    The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

    Youre barking up the wrong tree. I've never denied kecharitomene has grace in it. Grace by definition is unmerited favor. Mary was favored or highly favored in Luke 1:28. The word charitoo however does not now and has never meant 'full of grace'. Your own quote says as much. Stephen was full of...