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IMHO that is what we all should do. There is always the "human element" as we now see as through a glass (when Paul wrote those words glass was not clear). But we should treat things we read outside of Scripture as we treat opinions on this board - test them against Scripture. When you have...

What I have grown to appreciate about Christus Victor is that it is not a "camp" or theory but an overarching theme. That was hard for me at first because coming out of holding PSA I wanted a precise theory. Looking back that was wrong and humanistic. I also believe the Passover important in...

The ignore feature is a good tool. I use it for two reasons. First because I know myself and tend to respond to people in kind which only causes issues. Second and more importantly, it let's me control the group of people I engage. I am not interested in changing people's view or having mine...

Rita, I am so sorry that I did not answer this post. I overlooked your request for me to give my position with passages by accident. I would like for you to test what I believe against Scripture. I suggested you need to do this with PSA, but it is important to do with any doctrine (and to...

I am not asking for any smoke screens or alternate views of the Atonement. I believe that the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement (PSA) is a false doctrine. The reason is that there are no passages that state what makes PSA unique among views of the Cross. The problem with these discussions...

Looking at our posts it seems obvious (at least to me, I suspect to any others) that the difference is largely our view of doctrine as it relates to Scripture. In terms of doctrine I believe that Scripture is not only sufficient but all (at least foundational) doctrines MUST be tested against...

NO! This is wrong (it is what I was trying to convey earlier). We never hold false doctrine simply because we do not know a suitable replacement. PSA is heresy (in that it is a false doctrine that is not in the Bible). If Scripture does not answer the questions you may ask then who cares...

@Rita I want to add this (I did not just want to "edit" it in). One Monday a few years ago I awoke with the conviction I had preached philosophy rather than theory. I did not try to denounce PSA but did test it against Scripture with the hope it would be proven biblical. I purchased...

Does the Bible say that God punished Jesus? No. Does the Bible say that Jesus died instead of us? No. Does the Bible say that Jesus experienced God’s wrath? No. Does the Bible say that God must punish sin to forgive sinners? No. Does the Bible employ retributive judicial philosophy as...

Romans 3:21-26 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall...

Scripture does talk about sacrifices and the atonement in the Law. And this foreshadows the Cross. But nowhere is God presented as punishing any sacrifice instead of punishing a person. That is not only a misunderstanding of Jewish thought but of the New Testament as well.

This is not true. According to John Caldwell God was absolutely involved. Scripture tells us that the Father offered the Son, that while the Son was given over by the Jewish leaders and suffered and died at the hands of wicked men this was also the predetermined plan of God. And God raised...

Hi Rita, This is a very good question. I believe that our Reconciliation to God is a foundational doctrine. As such, I believe that we have to accept what is written in the Bible without adding to it (I believe so important a doctrine is stated in Scripture). That is why I do not believe PSA...

You can't talk about the Atonement (about Reconciliation) without talking about redemption and justification. The work of Christ has a universal effect - it affects all of Creation. The work of the Cross means the reconciliation of mankind (as the Early Church taught, the "human family"). It...

I suspect the idea that Christ died instead of us enjoys a certain amount of popularity precisely because it is a benign form of Christianity that makes no demand on us.

That is one issue. People choose commentators that support their view and offer them as evidence that their position is correct. Without this mentality PSA most likely never would have been invented. People like you and I ask for Scripture and we will always get commentators and some explanation...

How do you see the atonement work of Christ Jesus affecting the unsaved dead, such as are perhaps Cain, those whom God condemned and destroyed until the generation of Noah, those whom God condemned and destroyed in the flood in Noah's time, the Egyptian firstborns whom God killed in the Exodus...

The answer has been given throughout history. The position I hold is well established and documented. I do not understand how anyone could miss how it (or PSA, for that matter) necessities the work of the Cross. I do not mean to sound rude, but you should know these views before debating...

I am not saying all are saved. I am saying all judgment has been given to Christ (to include those who lived before the cross).

Christ had to suffer and die under the same powers that held mankind in bondage in order to free us from that curse. He had to be made a curse for us, "made sin" to free us from the bondage of sin. The reason is mankind had to have another "Adam" and another "birth". The reason the cross (the...