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OK, I understand! But one last comment . . . "without bias", that seems to indicate that we are unable to examine Scriptures with in intellectual honesty if we already have reached certain conclusions about what they mean. I was hoping to lead you through those same Scriptures, so you could...

The simplest example is right here. Matthew 24 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son...

Are you really done? What about "receiving the reconciliation?" " . . . we urge you, be reconciled to God", what about these things?

Pre-wrath? It doesn't work. You end up having to say that passages mean other than what they say. That's always an indicator . . . Jesus said . . . after the tribulation of those days . . . then comes the gathering of the chosen. Now, for the sake of the debate . . . let's say that this...

For God so loved the world . . .

Hi Jiggyfly, As previously stated, all are reconciled to God through Jesus, but that reconciliation must be received. These who are being address in the above passage have received that reconciliation: Colossians 1:1-2 ESV (1) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and...

Hi Bob, To recap, the gentiles, who do not have the law, have God's law written in their hearts, according to Romans 2. The Israelites, on the other hand, will have the law written in their hearts at some future time. So these must refer to 2 different concepts. In the case of the Gentiles...

So then you believe a rapture a couple of years ahead of Jesus' standing upon the earth? And this to occur during the time of the beast's authority? Is this correct? What is the beast's authority over?

The standard answer would be, the beast receives 42 months authority at the middle of the 70th week, or 3.5 years before Jesus returns. Would you agree with this?

Romans 5, the first part. 1 John 1. There are others. But just these make it clear. It doesn't directly address any of this. So we need to look at those Scriptures that directly address the point. Take the sheep/goats judgment. Those on Jesus' left will go to eternal punishment. That...

[/font][/b] Hi Bob, Firstly . . . thank you for the big type . . . these old tired eyes, you know! Just kidding, small is OK! I'll need to answer this more fully later, as I don't have time to address point by point, however, a couple of quick things . . . Who are the Gentiles in this...

How long does the beast have authority? When does the beast receive authority? Hi Bob, Yes, a 1000 year time when Jesus rules the earth from Jerusalem. At the catching of those in Christ, they are given immortal bodies. At the resurrection of the OT faithful, these too are given immortal...

The passage says that its when Jesus comes in glory, not 1000 years later. That the "gentiles" is actual Israel.

Matt 24:31, Jesus sends the angels to gather the chosen, and Matt 25:32, the nations are gathered. Both occur when He comes in glory, one immediately, one when He sits on His throne.

I'm speaking of the gathering of the chosen, followed by the gathering of the nations. Both occur when Jesus returns. The chosen are His chosen people being regathered to their promised land, in fulfillment of many prophecies. The nations are those we would call the gentiles, being gathered...

The basic meaning in my understanding is to restore to relationship. But you know there are two sides to reconciliation. I can be reconciled to you, while you are not reconciled to me. Let's say you've agregiously wronged me, and that caused a division. I can forgive, open my arms to you...

Firstly . . . there are a number of variations between "pre-wrath" theories. Interesting that you propose a works based righteousness. Not that I am debating that particular point, just to call attention to it. This is what the Scripture describes. But I do disagree with you specifically on...

Its a simple thing. Apply logic.

You can be reconciled to God - all men are - without having received that reconciliation. You must receive Jesus in order to be born again. Without being born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God. Being forgiven your sins - while tremendous - isn't enough. There is the verse . . . it is...

Considering that both gatherings occur when Jesus returns in glory, and considering that both gatherings contain the saved - the sheep are specifically called "righteous", you've got believers included in the nations. There only one way this really works.