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None of the ECF's expressed Penal Substitution Theory as they did not present God punishing Christ instead of punishing us by pouring His wrath upon Christ. Justin Martyr is one many seek to reinvent as teaching the Theory (ignoring his pre-recapitilation reaching and his understanding on...

No. You resorted to that behavior because you could not defend your own view. I gave you a bit of a hint on how you could defend your theory by telling you how I did when I held the Theory. Look into the Law and the sacrificial system and perhaps you can articulate an explanation we can discuss.

Steve, I did not realize you were Mormon (or had a LDS background) otherwise I may have anticipated some barriers. We may have been talking past each other a bit. Given your LDS background I think I see why we approach Scripture differently. It helps knowing a little about each other when...

@Steve Owen, Have you ever considered that your Mormon education may be influencing how you understand the Reformed teachers you now follow? At the very least it seems to be confusing how you interpret Scripture. I appreciate that you examined your views and moved from a Mormon tradition to...

Are you serious? As a Mormon why did you think Christ had to die? Penal Substitution Theory is not the reason Christ died. Until you understand that you cannot move to a biblical understanding of the Cross. You are missing the entire point.

You never told me where you went to seminary. I did not realize you were (or had been Mormon) but that makes sense with a few of the things you have said. If I recall, LDS "seminary" is a youth training program. Are/ were you very active in that church?

I think we all can know @David Taylor is lost when it comes to understanding and defending his theory as he has already resulted to calling people liars. He lost any argument before he could even muster up a defence for his view. BTW, @Mark Deckard is right. Penal Substitution Theory is a...

@Steve Owen, You made my education an issue to the point of wondering what kind of seminary I attended. You have never told me your education qualifications. In the interest of openness and honesty are you able to be as forthcoming as I have? Did you attend some kind of wicca college, maybe a...

I already told you that I believe those who are saved must die to sin and be recreated (what is often called "spiritual life") with hope in the resurrection (the flesh does die). Why do you believe human sin puts such an enormous obligation on God? Why do you believe that God had to "satisfy...

It is freezing here. 55 degrees.

Since none of those who hold Penal Substitution Theory are able to explain how they go from Scripture to the Theory I’ll explain how I did when I affirmed the Theory (a quick summary). Sin is an evil (a crime) committed against God. This crime deserves an eternal punishment because it is...

I believe it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. I do not believe we should approach our lexicons as sort of a smorgasbord where as long as it is possible we can choose any definition we desire. You inquired about my education (questioning, I take it, my qualification and...

I believe that in Christ we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace. If we confess our sins God is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteous. If we humble ourselves and seek God, repent from our...

I do not believe the language means Jesus was moved from disobedience to obedience (or from imperfect to perfect). I believe this is talking about the office of the High Priest (of our redemption). Christ had to suffer all things, to identify with us in all ways, in order to our High Priest (He...

The problem is not differing views (both sides say the other side has no clue and remain willfully blind. The problem is the side that believes God was not punishing Christ instead of punishing us have provided an explanation for their view (I provided an explanation for mine) while those who...

Isaiah 53:4-5 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His...

I believe you are at the passage that corresponds with the issue here. Hebrews 5:1-10 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided...

I must have missed your explanation. This is what I understand you to have explained: 1. the word used for "chastening" can mean "punishment" 2. you believe it means "punishment" because of how you view the context of the passage 3. you view words like "bruise" to indicate "punishment" What...

Good defense. :rolleyes: LOL. You can’t defend your position except to claim it means “punishment” because of the context so you resort to calling me a liar. Way to go hero. Punishment is a penalty or sanction as retribution for an offense or transgression of a legal or moral code. Scripture...

I am delighted you do not believe the Cross was divine punishment. That is a good start. The issue, though, is the word does not mean "punishment" at all. You assume the things Christ suffered was punishment but cannot say why.