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Hmm no I don't see them as such. They were mixed animals, clean and unclean. It also says will He find faith upon the earth when He returns? That does not sound like a harvest to me. I think there will be a surge into some churches, but not for the right reason. The stage draws them in and not...

Agreed that there are stages of growth when in holiness or in the ark. But in the ark. And with a pure heart.

I hope I have answered that question @marks. Please say if not.

Yes but we have a ministry in certain areas where we can demonstrate error from scripture more effectively. I agree with everything that has been posted about what the reborn state entails. That is it - we are a new creation and all things are new. Everything that Christ gained for us on the...

I studied his books. It came from him that he offered and l said it was my summation.I He had constant problems with the Catholic authorities.

I would recommend The Royal Invitation by Francis Havergal it's online for understanding what being in Christ means. It is all scripture. But anyway Mark, as we continue to misunderstand each other, it would help if you said exactly where you stand as it feels like you keep changing it.

St John wrote about the two 'night's of darkness, the first of the soul and the second, and much darker, night of the spirit. Teresa refused him as her spiritual advisor yet he was much more spiritually aware than the one she chose. I think she did not like his disapproval of her likeness for...

Yes it was Avila and l have read it. She went against St John of the Cross l believe with that idea whose view was more of the early church with three stages ending in union.

I don't believe in two levels either. We are in the ark or outside of it. I am just trying to grasp what you said about being in a spell where you were delivered from sin. On essence, the early church denied that we share in the essence but share in God's energies.

Before l can get my bible @marks, can you confirm that you are saying, that yes there are two levels for the believer both being in the born again state? The second level is one whereby we are able to not sin. Can you show me scriptures that show this?

Yes you are right. I was thinking that the holiness doctrine in the West avoids that. George Fox was much nearer to my views and of course the early church.

I am not on my pc but will get back tomorrow.

Right. So we choose whether to walk in the Spirit of the flesh?

@marks the main issue, is whether we can have the promises of God fulfilled in this life. From what l can see, you interpret scripture to mean that no, it is not until the next life but from your own experience, you get cognitive dissonance. Perhaps some western teachers of entire sanctification...

Or am I misunderstanding you, that we partake of Christ, in so doing showing forth His death, in our crucified life, that being Theosis? We are eating of His body and drinking of His blood, moment by moment, if we are in Christ, to my understanding, is to no longer showing forth His death, as...

@Holy999

Copied from the thread "Death to Self" @Lizbeth @Johann I do not agree with the popular idea that we must be 'dead to self'. In fact. that idea is from philosophy as found in eastern religions like Buddhism, who are told that there is no self, it is a construct of our minds and we should...

Leave that behind yes. Amen to that! (not die to self though) We are to deny self. Without self we are not alive.

I don't agree with EO over pedobaptism. Other refs are meaning Spirit baptism which I do believe in.

There is only one baptism and that is baptism of the Spirit. This of necessity is in adults.