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If you did all that research that is well and good but the fact you are unable to provide any actual proof that they have ended makes me wonder what evidence you found from your research. That is the issue though isn't it? my stance on the subject only requires faith it doesn't require evidence...

ok I can see we are not going to be able to reason with each on this so I will just agree to disagree

I myself am learning to surrender to him it has been a long ongoing process but I am slowly learning the lesson. and I have done all you have stated as well but like you said he is a good God a very patient understanding and loving God

You have it backwards God is not confusing people by performing real miracles the enemy is confusing people by making many fake ones, and there is not a single verse in scripture that states that the gifts or miracles have ceased not a single one and if the word of God itself doesn't say it why...

Ny personal belief is that unbelief has taken over the church because most Christians I ask about this all say the gifts have died out and if the church itself lives in unbelief how is the spirit supposed to show the wonders of God? Good on you for your your devotion to surrender that is very...

So no scriptural evidence just the lack of real miracles? The enemy desires that we live in unbelief of course he has many many fakes out there far more than true believers who actually walk in the gifts but this is the entire purpose of the enemy he wants us to be so disillusioned with these...

Are you saying thatt the issue is that some have the gift and others have another gift?

Yes you are absolutely correct, it is just odd to me that even they miracles happen they don't happen very often. people pray all the time for a miracle sometimes it happens but other times it never does I can pray for healing for a person all I want but never has it actually happened for me not...

So what then is the difference between miracles of the flesh and miracles of the spirit?

I think it depends on how you look at it. miracles were never meant to be a sign for an evil generation nor were they meant to be signs period they were the fruits of faith and of the spirit. Divine faith creates divine works and things of that nature are not ever said to be done away with in...

And what evidence is there to say that the gifts died with the apostles?

I agree that the devil has had his way within the church and no I don't believe just what I see but the word of God is the ultimate proof and again nowhere does it say that they have gone away not even with when Paul said they would pass away because the perfect he speaks of has not happened yet...

ok fair points

Your disbelief is heartbreaking, yes the enemy has done a great job at making fakes but to say that the real thing is now gone and away with you would have to deny God's power and ability. Not to mention the scriptures do not say they have gone so what evidence is there to say they are? the...

This makes perfect sense and I understand as I have been to churches like that.

Yes because a kingdom divided cannot stand and besides that I have learned that some of my original beliefs were wrong so laying down what I think I know in order that the church might be united in Christ yes I would say it is more than worth it

So you don't believe that the spiritual gifts are for today then? Because while rare yes I have seenmiracles happen one with healing another with speaking in tongues though that is not a miracle but yes I know there are many fakes out there and the enemy wants it that way because he does not...

Well to be fair even the original church had issues like this so never in history has the entire church been in one accord on doctrine So I would say best case we agree to disagree and agree to agree, the basics of salvation is pretty simple a good starting point as long as you don't over think...

I used to believe in osas but I have since learned that one can forfeit their salvation meaning they can fall away from faith not by sin as that was dealt with on the cross but I have seen many leave the faith for many reasons An argument that is made is that they were never truly saved to begin...

If it would bring unity yes I would give up on my own beliefs, but unity is possible even if we disagree on things But one issue I have found is that most are not willing to consider they may be wrong in their understanding and beliefs everyone is right in their own minds and so we have many...