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It seems to me that if we can determine if Enoch is reliable and literal, then we shall also have the answer to the question about Satan being a fallen angel. Yes, we seem to agree that "angels" are often men. Luke 20 is a mess to reckon. Is this a figurative meaning of death..? We all still...

Like I said before, most of what people believe about fallen angels comes from the book of Enoch: That isn't within the meaning of the word. Mala'ak and aggellos both mean messenger. Well, a bit more than that - a messenger with a writ of authority. If we're giving simple words in...

A single explanation for both those questions would seem to be - Satan was defeated about 2,000 years ago. Can I invoke Occam's razor here? Well, don't beat around the bush. Say it.

...by that name. In the other thread, we're looking at a passage where Jesus references Satan, and devils, and evil spirits. It's not a slam-dunk that those are fallen angels (that would be petitio principii). But it's not a given that they're not, either (and a negative premise can't be...

I think you have your answer to that already That's genuinely interesting. Luke the physician has a series of stories highlighting the nature of disease and its remedy? I've always read these chapters merely as accounts of Jesus interaction with the Pharisees, and some sign wonders. Also...

No - I decided to cede the point. I'm sure none of the verses you listed posit angels as disobedient. Otherwise you wouldn't have listed them Yes, Tobit gives us 7 archangels who stand before the throne of God. Michael, Gabriel and Raphael are named there. Others are named elsewhere. But...

That's a bit insulting... I suppose you don't know me, and there are plenty of people for which it's necessary to dumb things down. I'm not a novice. Let's speak to each other as equals, okay? Within the context of the chapter (yes I read the whole chapter) there are references to several...

I'd rather expand the context than limit it. The idea of fallen angels comes from the Old Testament - Genesis, Job, Ezekiel, and Daniel - but it isn't well-defined there. For that, you have to go to the Deuterocanon and pseudepigraphal books. That idea was developed in the period between the...

Well, I'm all for looking at the text. Shall we? Luke 10: 17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on...

That bolded bit certainly wasn't the belief of the early church. They believed in a number of different classes and types of angels - cherubim, seraphim, thrones, powers, principalities, archangels, etc. Some celestial, some terrestrial, and some with a foot in both.

I assume you cited this? Luke 10:18 And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Probably? The Canaanite vulture gods we know about (Hirgab & Samal) aren't the kind of gods anyone would adore. One might offer sacrifices to them out of fear, or to appease their appetite so they would leave your flocks alone. But one wouldn't follow them or believe them.

I prefer "yous guys," thank you

That's interesting, and it made me wonder if Abraham was located near one of the locations in Israel that were thought to be entrances to the underworld. Checked to see and... no. But I did find something interesting! This happens in the "valley of Shaveh, the king's dale." The king in...

What is the beginning of all things except our Lord and Saviour of all? Jesus Christ the firstborn of every creature. -Origen, from Homily 1, commenting on Genesis 1:1 Pretty sure most of us agree with that. You could make the question a little harder. Would you like to hear Origen on...

And David's. See Psalm 53 2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

Vultures, kites, and eagles are more than scavenger birds in the Bronze Age. They're religious symbols, sometimes regarded as minor gods, and usually associated with death. There seems to have been a (religious?) split at some point in the hoary past where one group practiced sky burial and...

The death penalty seems appropriate for cases of rape. I might even argue that summary execution is magnanimous. He could have busted out the world's first woodchipper. Early Genesis has several stories that appear to have pagan origins, but the author (editor?) inverted the story to make a...

Just don't try to bend the bill on that cap too far

Yes, but why is that relevant? This book was written to the Galatians. When it says "our" it's talking about the Galatians. That's all I said there.