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This is not about having grace...but about extending grace. If we have received grace then we also need to extend it. And we can do this a lot better if we don't have a totalitarian doctrinal stance. We can receive a righteous man in the name of a righteous man. And we can also ...on the...

True! But that is a sword that cuts both ways. Sometimes the novice can see things that careful traditional study can't even imagine. It the question of openness over agenda.

The all-sufficiency of a book? How dare you elevate the bible over God and His presence. I see you that ridiculous reaction and raise that to an even more ridiculous level.;)

Islam says...believe or die. And that means now and some are very willing to kill you if you don't convert. Christianity has the same attitude towards conversion...just not the same methods in that regard. Convert or die is still based upon the idea of conversion to what WE accept as the...

It should be remembered that every move of God in history was based on a living prophet...not just a book. We now have a book but no one to give us the actual words from God. There is a famine in the land...not of bibles...but of actual words from God intervening in our lives with power to...

Or could it be that the doctrinal stance of the translator affects the translation? Or the limited or non-existent understanding of a particular text? If non-spiritual men translate a mysterious sounding verse...or even a seeming error in their estimation...will they translate it to the best...

I think this shift has already happened "fundamentally"....pun intended. We become what we hate...we use the ways of our enemies to fight them...violence for violence...rather than loving them and preserving our ways.

What I haven't heard commentary on is how Judaism has a better more graceful approach to the problem of they who are not of the same faith. Judaism allows for righteousness outside their faith. This is huge. And this smacks of grace...rather than law. Could Christianity then just be the foil...

Great post. It is when we think we understand the plain meaning of the bible, and have already met it's conditions, that the subversion of the truth begins. That is where the danger lies. People sit in a pew to listen to an indoctrinating message that subverts the truth at least partway...and...

I think you are trying to bog down the thread. Why don't you read it and post an argument or two that debunks the position I made in the OP. The best way to counter an argument is not with a strawman position...but the opposite...trying to find the best argument to refute (the steel man) Now...

If I'm talking about apples and someone keeps talking about rebirth and how that relates to apples I think one of two things. 1 They just experience rebirth and can only see that for now...in immaturity 2. They have been indoctrinated so thouroughly that EVERYTHING has to do with that status...

Of course. The Jewish tradition allows for the "Sod" (secret) level of meaning in the text. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him. i suggest you do a study on secrets in the bible...as in it is the glory of God to hide a word...but the glory of kings to search it out... We are to...

And I agree with it after the disclaimer. (the warning) The irony is that it just needed to add in the first part as part of the fallacies that are possible :) As in... Warning Implicit can also include a level that means secret! You will get into all sorts of trouble if you don't try to find...

A person who is born again doesn't keep talking about being born again unless he is speaking from an indoctrinated dogma. A real born again person speaks FROM that place...not ABOUT it.

Are you saying that the Op is correcting itself by saying there is more truth than it is portraying? As in...I don't really know what I'm saying?

I disagree with this. The message of the bible is on different levels. Most people understand the literal part. But fewer and fewer will understand the deeper truth. It is a real problem when you limit the word to what can be apprehended with the carnal mind. God is deeper than men.(Otherwise...

And right there is the problem. God has no favourites. A person can be born again or say he is born again but the proof is always in the pudding so to speak. I see the most immature people calling themselves born again. So I eschew labels in favour of truth and reality...not beliefs and dogmas...

Instant salvation as instant gratification. And this of course without cost to the self-centered notion of life and the pursuit of ego driven gains. Modern evangelism has evolved (or devolved) into a very effective psychological ploy that is perpetrated under the guise of biblical truth. Truth...

Being born again is an individual consideration The OP is the effect of Islam on all of Christendom....and that includes BAC's...because these are still human and are not evolved so often to the point of discerning the forces that affect the world...or even themselves in most cases. So you are...

I'm always interested in a deeper seeking with a brother. I believe we should even be helping each other in our own argumental position. The idea is for the dialectic to bring us both to a better understanding. Like playing together in harmony to produce an edifying music. But not all people...