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Yes it was Avila and l have read it. She went against St John of the Cross l believe with that idea whose view was more of the early church with three stages ending in union.

I don't believe in two levels either. We are in the ark or outside of it. I am just trying to grasp what you said about being in a spell where you were delivered from sin. On essence, the early church denied that we share in the essence but share in God's energies.

Before l can get my bible @marks, can you confirm that you are saying, that yes there are two levels for the believer both being in the born again state? The second level is one whereby we are able to not sin. Can you show me scriptures that show this?

Yes you are right. I was thinking that the holiness doctrine in the West avoids that. George Fox was much nearer to my views and of course the early church.

I am not on my pc but will get back tomorrow.

Right. So we choose whether to walk in the Spirit of the flesh?

@marks the main issue, is whether we can have the promises of God fulfilled in this life. From what l can see, you interpret scripture to mean that no, it is not until the next life but from your own experience, you get cognitive dissonance. Perhaps some western teachers of entire sanctification...

Or am I misunderstanding you, that we partake of Christ, in so doing showing forth His death, in our crucified life, that being Theosis? We are eating of His body and drinking of His blood, moment by moment, if we are in Christ, to my understanding, is to no longer showing forth His death, as...

@Holy999

Copied from the thread "Death to Self" @Lizbeth @Johann I do not agree with the popular idea that we must be 'dead to self'. In fact. that idea is from philosophy as found in eastern religions like Buddhism, who are told that there is no self, it is a construct of our minds and we should...

Leave that behind yes. Amen to that! (not die to self though) We are to deny self. Without self we are not alive.

I don't agree with EO over pedobaptism. Other refs are meaning Spirit baptism which I do believe in.

There is only one baptism and that is baptism of the Spirit. This of necessity is in adults.

There is only one baptism, which is the actual union of the believer with Christ, whereby one has been cleansed of all sin by His blood and has therefore gained entry into the kingdom. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us *(not the putting away of the filth of the...

There are doctrinal differences, mostly on minor things, but the vast majority use the Divine Liturgy and either the old or new calendar for feasts. You can go into one Orthodox church and go to another thousands of miles away and find it exactly the same. Nothing like what happened to...

I have already said that you can find anything you want in Orthodoxy. Many began to fall away from the Apostolic faith from the early years. And now barely any know of it. Their fasting consists of avoiding meat and dairy for certain days of the week. As I cannot eat grains, that would be...

@Johann well done. Not all in the first world are fatties addicted to McDonalds.

@Lizbeth I think that there are cleansings depicted by the river and sea, given to us for encouragement of what can be for us, but they are not the one baptism of the Spirit that delivers us from sin.

I fast from anything of the world. As for food I have only a few foods I am not allergic to, and not in a position of health whereby I can fast from all foods. My liver is damaged from mercury and cannot store glycogen. I do fast from fast foods and other unhealthy foods, eating only food as it...

Hang on, four baptisms now :) lol. I think a lot of confusion is due to 'progressive' theology which has spilled over to a gradual sanctification which is not in line with the three definite stages in the early church, and the two definite stages in the Holiness Movement of the 19th C. There...