מוּסָר‎ in Deuteronomy 11:2-3

[John Caldwell]

It has been suggested that מוּסָר in Deuteronomy 11:2-3 supports the idea that Christ's work was in fact God punishing Christ instead of punishing us.

(See @Steve Owen 's claim, Post#4, Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5 )


Deuteronomy 11:2-3 "Know this day that I am not speaking with your sons who have not known and who have not seen the discipline (or instruction) of the LORD your God—His greatness, His mighty hand and His outstretched arm, and His signs and His works which He did in the midst of Egypt to Pharaoh the king of Egypt and to all his land”
Here @Steve Owen suggests that מוּסָר‎. (translated “discipline” with an alternate translation “instruction” in the NASB) cannot mean “instruction” or “discipline” but means “punishment”.

Does that make sense? Was God’s greatness, His mighty hand and His outstreached arm, and His signs and works which He did to Pharaoh God punishing Israel?

I suggest that it is not and in Deuteronomy 11:2-3 the translators of the NASB were absolutely correct to render the word “discipline” or “instruction”. No translation uses the word “punishment”. The closest we come is the KJV which uses “chastisement” (which could mean punishment but also means discipline, purify, refine, and subdue).

What are the reasons for interpreting מוּסָר in this passage to mean "punishment"?

 

[Episkopos]

It has been suggested that מוּסָר in Deuteronomy 11:2-3 supports the idea that Christ's work was in fact God punishing Christ instead of punishing us.

(See @Steve Owen 's claim, Post#4, Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5 )


Deuteronomy 11:2-3 "Know this day that I am not speaking with your sons who have not known and who have not seen the discipline (or instruction) of the LORD your God—His greatness, His mighty hand and His outstretched arm, and His signs and His works which He did in the midst of Egypt to Pharaoh the king of Egypt and to all his land”
Here @Steve Owen suggests that מוּסָר‎. (translated “discipline” with an alternate translation “instruction” in the NASB) cannot mean “instruction” or “discipline” but means “punishment”.

Does that make sense? Was God’s greatness, His mighty hand and His outstreached arm, and His signs and works which He did to Pharaoh God punishing Israel?

I suggest that it is not and in Deuteronomy 11:2-3 the translators of the NASB were absolutely correct to render the word “discipline” or “instruction”. No translation uses the word “punishment”. The closest we come is the KJV which uses “chastisement” (which could mean punishment but also means discipline, purify, refine, and subdue).

What are the reasons for interpreting מוּסָר in this passage to mean "punishment"?

In the synagogue meetings at the time of Jesus there was a time set aside for a "davar mousar"...a word of exhortation. That is when men like Paul would stand up and preach the gospel. Of course today...there is no such input permitted.

But neither is there in the institutional churches. These have been "pastorized" so as to be rid of ALL spiritual influences....whether good or bad. (Since people can't discern what is of God or not)

Pastorization (Pasteurization) involves killing ALL bacteria...both good and bad bacteria...since the process doesn't discern the difference between these...hence my comparison to the churches of today.

I will not sit through a meeting that doesn't allow for a word of exhortation from ALL members. But who follows the bible..let alone God?

 

[Episkopos]

Isaiah 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The chastisement (mousar) of our peace...our understanding of peace...the peace of this world. It was said of Jesus that "better for one man to die (for the supposed idea of peace) than the whole nation perish." So then Jesus was disciplined (exhorted)...and condemned for the sake of our idea of peace.

Ironically what the Sanhedrin feared so much in Jesus in rejection of Him...they fully endorsed in Bar Kochba...which actually led to the destruction of the nation.

Such foolishness among professors of wisdom.

 

[John Caldwell]

But who follows the bible..let alone God?

Christianity is very much illiterate when it comes to Scripture. The sin of it is this is a willful ignorance because having Scripture we, as a whole, prefer theory and tradition.

I think this is how we have become as a society (no one reads literature, like Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness, because it's too hard when we have someone who will make a movie and give us what we want to know how we want it to be). No one wants to deal with political/ social issues because we have political that can tell us what to believe. And no one wants to address how they get from Scripture to their understanding because they do not really know as they've read Scripture through the lens provided for them.

I like your use of Pastorization.

 

[Episkopos]

Christianity is very much illiterate when it comes to Scripture. The sin of it is this is a willful ignorance because having Scripture we, as a whole, prefer theory and tradition.

I think this is how we have become as a society (no one reads literature, like Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness, because it's too hard when we have someone who will make a movie and give us what we want to know how we want it to be). No one wants to deal with political/ social issues because we have political that can tell us what to believe. And no one wants to address how they get from Scripture to their understanding because they do not really know as they've read Scripture through the lens provided for them.

I like your use of Pastorization.

We need prophets in the church....they who are called of God and stand apart from what people want to hear...and only speak from the heart of God.

Who wants to see what God is doing? It takes GREAT patience to see that. Imagine watching a flower grow....it takes time...but the results are wonderful.

That's the way God builds. Slowly...and then suddenly! But by then the interest is gone and men have opted for more "expedient" methods.

 

[DNB]

It has been suggested that מוּסָר in Deuteronomy 11:2-3 supports the idea that Christ's work was in fact God punishing Christ instead of punishing us.

(See @Steve Owen 's claim, Post#4, Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5 )


Deuteronomy 11:2-3 "Know this day that I am not speaking with your sons who have not known and who have not seen the discipline (or instruction) of the LORD your God—His greatness, His mighty hand and His outstretched arm, and His signs and His works which He did in the midst of Egypt to Pharaoh the king of Egypt and to all his land”
Here @Steve Owen suggests that מוּסָר‎. (translated “discipline” with an alternate translation “instruction” in the NASB) cannot mean “instruction” or “discipline” but means “punishment”.

Does that make sense? Was God’s greatness, His mighty hand and His outstreached arm, and His signs and works which He did to Pharaoh God punishing Israel?

I suggest that it is not and in Deuteronomy 11:2-3 the translators of the NASB were absolutely correct to render the word “discipline” or “instruction”. No translation uses the word “punishment”. The closest we come is the KJV which uses “chastisement” (which could mean punishment but also means discipline, purify, refine, and subdue).

What are the reasons for interpreting מוּסָר in this passage to mean "punishment"?

I do not believe that Jesus was punished for our sins.
But, for the sake of argument, I can see an acceptable rendering of 'punish' in Deut. 11:2-3, because i believe that the context of the word used, (discipline, instruction, chastisement), is referring to Egypt, not Israel. i.e. The Israelites are seeing the punishment that he wrought against Egypt. It is not saying, you have seen both, the Lord's discipline upon you, plus the wonders that i enacted in Egypt. But rather, you have witnessed my instruction/punishment to the Egyptians, by what I performed in Egypt. Hyphens, as a literary convention, denote an 'Id est', or 'i.e.', meaning 'that is'. It's not a conjunction.

But, again, regardless how one translates this particular pericope, I still don't believe that Jesus was punished for our sins, and thus, in the Penal Substitution Theory.