22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[jeffweeder]

I know what the term means.

Make up your mind .
You said in post 2148 you didn't know what a premill was.
Nevermind , have a nice day.

 

[dad]

Make up your mind .
You said in post 2148 you didn't know what a premill was.
Nevermind , have a nice day.

Wrong. You used in in a way that was unrelated. As if it was some time period such as the millennium. The term itself simply refers to how Jesus returns before He rules for 1000 years.

 

[covenantee]

Well, they were promised that land.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Christ, not Israel, is the Heir of all things.

 

[dad]

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Christ, not Israel, is the Heir of all things.

Why would Israel be the heir of all things? They, if the believe are heir to God's promises for them.

 

[covenantee]

Why would Israel be the heir of all things? They, if the believe are heir to God's promises for them.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Those who believe are the heirs of New Covenant promises, which are better than old covenant promises.

 

[dad]

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Those who believe are the heirs of New Covenant promises, which are better than old covenant promises.

Since all Israel will believe they will be heirs. The better covenant Jesus gave us is grace and salvation as a gift. That is better than the blood of sheep. In no way does that mean God will not keep His promises already made!

 

[Keraz]

You teach exactly the opposite of what the Prophets taught. Even Jesus in Acts chapter 1 told the apostles it’s not for them to know the times or the seasons when Israel would be restored as Jesus’ kingdom. You have a lot to learn.
With God, promises made to the fathers are promises kept.

The Prophesies that tell of the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, do not refer to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster will be the event which comes as a thief. The Return won't be unexpected.

I said most would be killed and that only those relatively few remaining would be saved.

The Jews who do survive God's wrath, will be those who have accepted Jesus now.

Great, so the remnant believes in the end. What about it?

They will join with their Christian brethren and will all go to live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5

Well, they were promised that land.

We Christian peoples are the inheritors of all of the holy land. His 'sheep', John 10:1-27; will be gathered there and the Lord will bless them. Ezekiel 34:11-16. Psalms 37:29, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Truther]

The Prophesies that tell of the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, do not refer to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster will be the event which comes as a thief. The Return won't be unexpected.

The Jews who do survive God's wrath, will be those who have accepted Jesus now.

They will join with their Christian brethren and will all go to live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5

We Christian peoples are the inheritors of all of the holy land. His 'sheep', John 10:1-27; will be gathered there and the Lord will bless them. Ezekiel 34:11-16. Psalms 37:29, Romans 9:24-26

You teach Replacement Theology.

This calls God a bold faced liar to the fathers.

The main conversation of the OT until Jesus ascended was always this....


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Which concerned the promises of the OT. But Jesus answered this...

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Meaning, "it is none of your business and not in your lifetimes to see".


The replacement theology teacher redefines it as this....

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to THE CHURCH?

7 And he said unto them, It is OBVIOUSLY for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Actually, the great tribulation is referring to several years in the end.

I've shared this in forums like this one many times, and I've shared it in many places. Nobody has been able to, nor can, rebut the facts. This is what Jesus said in Luke 21...

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

A few major points that must be answered by all who take this Discourse of Jesus seriously...
1) Jesus is describing the Abomination of Desolation as beginning with Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. That took place in his generation by Roman armies, who surrounded Jerusalem like eagles--they carried idolatrous eagle standards. All versions of the Olivet Discourse refer to this same Abomination of Desolation. All referred to the same "great distress," or "great tribulation." This is not Preterism--this is what the Early Church Fathers believed.
2) Jesus indicated that this would be a time of Jewish punishment, lasting for the entire age, until "the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Since Jesus spoke these words to Israel, at a time before the international Church was even born, the "wrath" he spoke of was being directed only at Israel. It was a *national judgment.*

This alone should make you question your view of the "Great Tribulation." But modern eschatology often rejects this in the fear of being labeled a Preterist. But it is not just a Preterist teaching, but rather, the view of the ancient Church Fathers, who viewed this as an historical fulfillment, without sacrificing the future aspect of either Antichrist or the 2nd Coming of Christ.

Once you get this right, all of your other questions get resolved. Dan 9 and the 70 Weeks Prophecy is saying the exact same thing! After 69 Weeks, Christ comes and is put to death. The "prince to come," the Roman leadership, will establish Christ's covenant with Israel by having Christ put to death and later, by destroying the temple and Jerusalem. The "prince to come," therefore, along with his Army, is the Abomination of Desolation who "desolated" the temple in the generation of Jesus.

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

"Then" is when Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed in Jesus' generation. That's when the Jewish Punishment began, which is to last until the end of the age. It is the worst tribulation in Israel's history for the reason I already mentioned--it was the longest punishment in Israel's history.

None of this is intended to make light of Antichrist's persecution of the Church in the endtimes. That persecution is simply part of the same era in which Israel is being punished by God. And the suffering of the international Church is merely a continuation of what the church in Israel went through when Israel turned against Christ.

If we are to compare one period of tribulation with another, you won't find that Antichrist will be any worse than previous Antichrists--they are all bad! Can you really say Antichrist is worst than Nero, who burned Christians on poles? Can you really say Antichrist is worse than Hitler, who did experiments on Jews?

No, they are all bad, and the Apostle John wanted us to be focused on the Antichrists of our own time, rather than speculate about the future Antichrist. Antichrist will merely be the end of the road for all Antichrists.

So the AntiChrist did not place the abomination in Jesus' day. Whatever happened in those days is not the great tribulation, and not like the great tribulation even!

The reference to the AoD in the Olivet Discourse identified, in Luke 21, an "army* surrounding Jerusalem. The Roman general placed them there in a position of siege, in preparation to destroy both Jerusalem and the temple. The "desolation" was the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. The "abomination" was the pagan Roman army itself.

Great. So what does that have to do with what we were talking about (all Israel getting saved)

It's a side note. If we are to make reference to terms like "the Great Tribulation," we must use them properly to understand the whole picture properly.

The salvation of "all Israel" in this sense renders Israel's salvation both spiritual and political. When the oppression of Israel, begun by Rome, comes to an end, they will be free *politically.* Of course, we knows that its final success will be guaranteed by the full conversion of the state of Israel to Christianity.

Again, says who? Many of the last shall be first. How do we know Jesus will not use the newly saved Israel to rule themselves, under His direction? I see nothing in the bible about some so called constitution for Israel? Nor do I see anything anywhere that says anyone in Israel will not then be a believer.

See above. If we're talking about a political deliverance and a general conversion, just as it would happen today among mortal people, then we're not talking about a 100% regenerated (saved) people--only a completely converted nation.

All that is left alive! And that will be the remnant.
So what? That land has not been given to them again yet! That only happens after all Israel gets saved in the end. Right now they are there on thier own volition as far as I can see.
They will possess all that they were promised which is a lot more than what Israel has today. What it means when it says all Israel will be saved is that all the remaining people there (or abroad also) will be saved. Not all the territory will be saved. They will have far far more territory when God restores them.

Precisely how much land they have is not my concern. My concern is to see the entire nation saved, with all the land necessary to allow them to be fulfilled as a complete nation.

That means they won't have only a small part of the land of Israel. They must have sufficient land to enable an entire people to be self-sufficient for people and for resources. That may indeed require more land than they had before. It just won't be less.

No. Israel being saved means they accept Jesus, nothing to do with politics. Since a vast majority in Israel are killed in the tribulation I am not sure the term mass repentance is the best one.

That is the implication in Zech 12.10--a mass repentance, a general repentance by all the people. This has nothing to do with 100% regeneration or Salvation, but rather, a national spiritual experience.

In the ages of mortal humanity, no Christian nation ever has 100% Christian regeneration in the sense of Salvation--at best only a regeneration *experience.* But a massive national experience of repentance and spiritual regeneration can and does happen, whether or not every individual "gets saved."

 

[Rich R]

Jn 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jn 10
30 I and the Father are one.”

Jn 20
26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Col1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Gen 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

John 1 says the "word" was in the beginning, was with God, was God, and became flesh. The word "Word" is the Greek word "logos" and the 1st century reader of John would have understood what it means. Suffice it to say it didn't mean "Jesus" to them. Do some research on logos.

Jesus said more than once that we Christians are also one.

An image of something is not the thing itself. Yes, Jesus was the firstborn. God was born? I don't think so.

Yes, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Nothing there about Jesus though. It is an assumption that God was conferring with the second person of the trinity in Genesis. There are better explanations such as the heavenly host. Look it up.

The Ancient Near Easterner understood the word "god" in a much different way that we do. You can find several places in the Bible where someone other than Yahweh was called god. Look up the word "god" in Strong's. Jesus had power and authority after the resurrection which would have qualified him to be called a god, but he wasn't Yahweh. Only one Yahweh.

But, if all of those verses are proof that Jesus is God, then how do you explain that both Paul and Jesus said the only true God is the Father? Jesus is not the Father.

 

[Rich R]

So, you're part of some other cult which denies that Jesus is God then? Have you never read this:

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

That doesn't say Jesus is God. It says God dwelt in Jesus.

Eph 3:19,

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.​

Like Colossians, this doesn't say we are God. It says God dwells in us.

Or this:

Isaiah 9:6 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"His name shall be called" is not at all the same as "He is." Not all gods are Yahweh. Research names in the Ancient Near East. They understood a name in a much different way than we do in the modern West.

G2316 θεός theos (the-os') n.

1. (properly, in Greek) a god or deity. a supernatural, powerful entity (real or imagined).
2. (by Hebraism, especially with G3588) God, the Supreme Being, the Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Yahweh by name.
3. (figuratively) a supreme magistrate (in the land).​

And besides, why did Joseph and Mary ignore Isaiah and just call their baby "Jesus?"

Or this:

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 17:11,

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].​

John 17:21,

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.​

Unless we are all God, apparently being one with someone else doesn't make the two somehow one. Better look deeper at what it means to be one.

Or this:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

My favorite. This is the one where everybody just blithely substitutes the the word "Jesus" for "Word" without any further consideration. Hardly ever occurs to anyone to find out exactly what the Greek word "logos" actually means despite how incredibly easy it is to do. Look it up in Strong's and look at all the occurrences in the scriptures. There is also tons of information on the etymology of the word logos.

Whenever I quote both Jesus and Paul saying that only the Father is the one true God, all I get back are a bunch of verses that when looked at honestly say nothing at all about Jesus actually being God.

Nobody ever explains some of the points I bring up, namely:

1. how that can be when it is said that only the Father is God
   
2. how one part of God can be subject to another part of God
3. how one part of God knows things another part doesn't know.
4. how Jesus had the same God and father as we have (the God and father of God?)
5. how Jesus had a different will than his Father
6. how Jesus was tempted but God can't be tempted.
7. how God grew in stature and wisdom
8. how God was the firstborn
9. how one part of God deferred his doctrine to another part
10. how one part of God anointed another part. Was one part not anointed at some time?

There are many more, but the biggest question is how can a son be his own Father?

I answered all your verses. Can you answer at least as many?

 

[Rich R]

Scripture repeatedly teaches that Jesus is God. You are deceived.

First you try to tell me we can't comprehend God. I show you a couple of verses that say we can comprehend God. Instead of humbling yourself in the face of scripture and considering that maybe you're the one who has been deceived, that we actually are quite capable of comprehending God, you just say I'm deceived.

I think I understand why you so hate me bringing up tradition vs the scriptures. Lacking the humility to change, it pricks you to the heart that your long standing tradition may not be the truth. Let it go. You'll feel much better. I'm being sincere when I say that.

 

[dad]

The Prophesies that tell of the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, do not refer to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

The day includes a of of things. One of them is the fiery destruction of the wicked He destroys when He comes. Another is the rule on earth with His saints, another is the rebellion after the 1000 years, another is the new heaven and earth after the 1000 years etc etc. Your myopic opinions are a transparent effort to lump it all into the few hours Jesus returns to earth.

The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster will be the event which comes as a thief. The Return won't be unexpected.

Which return? The return at the end of the seven years is very much expected and known to the day. We are given the years the months and even the days. The appearing that comes as thief in the night is His appearing to take us in the air to be with Him. You also conflate these. Is it any wonder that your doctrines are the way they are?

The Jews who do survive God's wrath, will be those who have accepted Jesus now.

If all that was needed was to save those already now saved, we need to toss out a large part of the bible that talks of many getting saved later! The tribulation would also be a waste of time.

They will join with their Christian brethren and will all go to live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5

You thought Jesus was in heaven for a few thousand years preparing a place for us in the holy land!? Hilarious.

Your twistings of the bible are consistently off the charts wrong. I prefer the bible based spirit led views.

 

[dad]

I've shared this in forums like this one many times, and I've shared it in many places. Nobody has been able to, nor can, rebut the facts. This is what Jesus said in Luke 21...

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

A few major points that must be answered by all who take this Discourse of Jesus seriously...
1) Jesus is describing the Abomination of Desolation as beginning with Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.

It does not say any such thing. Jerusalem was often surrounded by armies. The special time He is talking about requires some understanding because it involves the book of Daniel the prophet. That tells us when this abomination of desolation will be placed and for how long and by whom etc. There is no possible way that has happened yet. So what it tells us when someone claims it has is that they really really do not know what they are talking about.
The trick is to understand and believe, not to post some rubbish on a lot of forums.

2) Jesus indicated that this would be a time of Jewish punishment, lasting for the entire age, until "the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Since Jesus spoke these words to Israel, at a time before the international Church was even born, the "wrath" he spoke of was being directed only at Israel. It was a *national judgment.*

Now you build on your error, trying to make the time of the gentiles mean what you think might fit your error.

Once you get this right, all of your other questions get resolved. Dan 9 and the 70 Weeks Prophecy is saying the exact same thing! After 69 Weeks, Christ comes and is put to death. The "prince to come," the Roman leadership, will establish Christ's covenant with Israel by having Christ put to death and later, by destroying the temple and Jerusalem. The "prince to come," therefore, along with his Army, is the Abomination of Desolation who "desolated" the temple in the generation of Jesus.

Now you project your error through the bible! The kingdom of God has not yet come on earth so that His will is also done here as in heaven. He is not yet ruling the world with His saints with Jerusalem as the capitol. The abomination spoken of by Daniel is not yet set up, and when it is, we can count the days. Etc etc etc.

Daniel 9:24

"Seventy ‘sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. All that has not happened yet. The prophesy is NOT all finished and done and sealed. Man's transgression is not yet stopped and over. That will only happen after Jesus rules. There is no everlasting righteousness on earth now if you notice!

"Then" is when Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed in Jesus' generation. That's when the Jewish Punishment began, which is to last until the end of the age. It is the worst tribulation in Israel's history for the reason I already mentioned--it was the longest punishment in Israel's history.

When the AntiChrist (who is not even revealed yet) places that abomination in the holy place there will be no long period of anything anymore! The time will be short.

If we are to compare one period of tribulation with another, you won't find that Antichrist will be any worse than previous Antichrists--they are all bad!

Jesus says the opposite. He says that time will be UNLIKE any other time past or future.

Can you really say Antichrist is worst than Nero, who burned Christians on poles? Can you really say Antichrist is worse than Hitler, who did experiments on Jews?

The final leader will be the worst by far and rule the world in the direct power of Satan. No one else ever ruled this world.
Just because the world has had a taste of that anti Jesus spirit before does not mean that the man prophesied about in the end was here, or that it was the same in any real way.

The salvation of "all Israel" in this sense renders Israel's salvation both spiritual and political. When the oppression of Israel, begun by Rome, comes to an end, they will be free *politically.* Of course, we knows that its final success will be guaranteed by the full conversion of the state of Israel to Christianity.

It will never come to and end until God comes down and saves them. Imagining some conversion of a state is a dream. The few who are not killed there will all be saved in the end and God will give them their state. That is not the secular state we see today changing! That is sincere survivors realizing they have been wrong all this time and being sorry and believing and being saved by God.

Precisely how much land they have is not my concern. My concern is to see the entire nation saved, with all the land necessary to allow them to be fulfilled as a complete nation.

Your idea of what land would be fair for them has no value. The borders were given thousands of years ago for the promised land, all the way to the Euphrates river, etc etc.

That is the implication in Zech 12.10--a mass repentance, a general repentance by all the people. This has nothing to do with 100% regeneration or Salvation, but rather, a national spiritual experience.

Zechariah 12:10

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

That is the remnant repenting. Those still alive in the end. I forget the number but I think it was something like about 4/5 of the people will die in Israel. So if you want to call the remnant the 'mass', fine.

In the ages of mortal humanity, no Christian nation ever has 100% Christian regeneration in the sense of Salvation--at best only a regeneration *experience.* But a massive national experience of repentance and spiritual regeneration can and does happen, whether or not every individual "gets saved."

You made that up. Where does the bible say that those saved were not really saved and were not really regenerated? The bible says all Israel will be saved. Why would we take your word for it that this is wrong and that the land will still be riddled with rebels who were not really saved?

 

[covenantee]

Since all Israel will believe they will be heirs. The better covenant Jesus gave us is grace and salvation as a gift. That is better than the blood of sheep. In no way does that mean God will not keep His promises already made!

Thankfully, bro, the old will and testament containing the "weak and beggarly elements" (Galatians 4:9) that you are attempting to exhume; is forever rotted and gone (Hebrews 8:13), replaced, eclipsed, and transcended by the immeasurably better promises of the New Will and Testament (Hebrews 8:6), written in the Blood of the Divine Testator upon His Death (Hebrews 9:15-17), and inherited by Him and those in Him upon and ever since His resurrection (Hebrews 1:1-2).

Because that's how wills and testaments work.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But notice:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.

 

[Keraz]

You teach Replacement Theology.

Not so. There have always been gentile Israelites.
They are the majority of God's faithful peoples now.

7 And he said unto them, It is OBVIOUSLY for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The Lord will come unexpectedly; as a thief; on His forthcoming, terrible Day of fiery wrath. On the glorious Day of His Return, at least 10 years later, God's Trumpet will announce it, 1 Thess 4:16 and everyone will see Him arrive. Revelation 1:7

The day includes a of of things. One of them is the fiery destruction of the wicked He destroys when He comes.

Answered above.
In the 3 main Prophesies which describe the Return of Jesus, Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:11-21, there is no mention of 'fiery destruction' at all.
ALL the vividly described Prophesies which do tell of a punishment by fire; refer to the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The event that sets the scene for all the rest of the end time prophesies to take place.

If all that was needed was to save those already now saved, we need to toss out a large part of the bible that talks of many getting saved later! The tribulation would also be a waste of time.

The Bible does not mention a general redemption of the Jews. Zechariah 13 refers to just a few families.
During the GTrib, it seems that no one repents and gets saved. Revelation 16:11

You thought Jesus was in heaven for a few thousand years preparing a place for us in the holy land!? Hilarious.

Your avoidance of the scriptural proofs that I present, is an indictment against you. Is what Jeremiah 50:4-5 says, meaningless to you?
Look at Jeremiah 50:6 My people have been lost sheep..... Jesus says who those 'lost sheep' are; Christians. John 10:1-29

 

[Randy Kluth]

It does not say any such thing. Jerusalem was often surrounded by armies. The special time He is talking about requires some understanding because it involves the book of Daniel the prophet.

Take all the time you need. But in reality, scholars throughout history have viewed this as a reference to 70 AD. Modern eschatology wants everything to be about the Antichrist. Sorry--it just doesn't fit.

That tells us when this abomination of desolation will be placed and for how long and by whom etc. There is no possible way that has happened yet. So what it tells us when someone claims it has is that they really really do not know what they are talking about.
The trick is to understand and believe, not to post some rubbish on a lot of forums.

This is what the Church Fathers believed. I suppose modern prophecy enthusiasts know better?

"Seventy ‘sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. All that has not happened yet. The prophesy is NOT all finished and done and sealed. Man's transgression is not yet stopped and over. That will only happen after Jesus rules. There is no everlasting righteousness on earth now if you notice!

As I said, the Church Fathers saw Daniel's 70th Week Prophecy and the Olivet Discourse of Jesus as saying, essentially, the same thing. Christ would come, be cut off, and the Romans would send armies to destroy Jerusalem and the temple. And yes, Jesus fulfilled all 6 of the things Daniel indicated he would do. He brought the sins of Israel to a head, and then provided atonement for them. He was the Anointing and the new Temple of God.

Jesus says the opposite. He says that time will be UNLIKE any other time past or future.
The final leader will be the worst by far and rule the world in the direct power of Satan. No one else ever ruled this world.
Just because the world has had a taste of that anti Jesus spirit before does not mean that the man prophesied about in the end was here, or that it was the same in any real way.

Again, you are conflating two separate passages, the Olivet Discourse, which speaks of the Jewish Punishment, and Rev 13, which speaks of the Antichrist. They are not the same thing!

What makes the "Jewish Punishment" the worst in history is its sheer length of time, its duration! One tribulation is not worse than another except for its length of time. Death is death. Torture is torture. They happened in every tribulation in history.

Imagining some conversion of a state is a dream. The few who are not killed there will all be saved in the end and God will give them their state. That is not the secular state we see today changing! That is sincere survivors realizing they have been wrong all this time and being sorry and believing and being saved by God.

God's promise to Abraham was the state of Israel, a Christian state.

Your idea of what land would be fair for them has no value. The borders were given thousands of years ago for the promised land, all the way to the Euphrates river, etc etc.

The value of the land of Israel is that it is the original location of the nation, and the place God promised to them.

Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

That is the remnant repenting. Those still alive in the end. I forget the number but I think it was something like about 4/5 of the people will die in Israel. So if you want to call the remnant the 'mass', fine.

Yes, a 1/3 that survives eventually becomes a full nation. Remnants grow into nations, if allowed to do so. Even an entire group constituting 1/3 of the original population would be a "mass" conversion if it happened.

You made that up. Where does the bible say that those saved were not really saved and were not really regenerated? The bible says all Israel will be saved. Why would we take your word for it that this is wrong and that the land will still be riddled with rebels who were not really saved?

I'm identifying current conditions with conditions in the Millennium. The present mortal world will be mortal then, as well. The only difference is, Satan is removed, and glorified Christians rule over the earth, together with Christ. The result is that Christian states are protected.

If indeed the world then will be as the world is now, with the noted exceptions, then the Christian nations will still have people with "regeneration" experiences without full conversions.

 

[dad]

Thankfully, bro, the old will and testament containing the "weak and beggarly elements" (Galatians 4:9) that you are attempting to exhume; is forever rotted and gone (Hebrews 8:13), replaced, eclipsed, and transcended by the immeasurably better promises of the New Will and Testament (Hebrews 8:6), written in the Blood of the Divine Testator upon His Death (Hebrews 9:15-17), and inherited by Him and those in Him upon and ever since His resurrection (Hebrews 1:1-2).

The remnant are saved by the new covenant of belief in Jesus which moots your points something fierce.

Because that's how wills and testaments work.

Prophesies work like this -- they come true. Promises also. You seem to interpret promises and prophesies of the saving of Israel as something that does not involve Jesus. That is not good.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

And the remnant believe in Christ...so?

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

Regarding salvation, maybe. Not regarding specific promise prophesy to Israel. That is alive and well, thank you very much.

No promise to Israel in the end was or will be reviked any more than our salvation promise will be.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Again, why spam verses that have nothing to do with it? The Jews of all Israel in the end get saved by belief in Jesus. That does not take away from the fact He also will destroy their enemies after that, restore them to the land etc etc.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

That testament is salvation through Christ. Not revoking past promises or prophesies!

Try to debate on point. Your strawman verses are not addressing the issue.

 

[dad]

Answered above.
In the 3 main Prophesies which describe the Return of Jesus, Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:11-21, there is no mention of 'fiery destruction' at all.

Look deeper. Example:
2 Thessalonians 2:8

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

ALL the vividly described Prophesies which do tell of a punishment by fire; refer to the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The event that sets the scene for all the rest of the end time prophesies to take place.

Again, you make stuff up

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The Bible does not mention a general redemption of the Jews. Zechariah 13 refers to just a few families.

Verse that says that?

During the GTrib, it seems that no one repents and gets saved. Revelation 16:11

No. The world blasphemes, not His people in the world. That says nothing at all about how many get saved or not.

Your avoidance of the scriptural proofs that I present, is an indictment against you. Is what Jeremiah 50:4-5 says, meaningless to you?

I see zero in those verses that even relate to anything talked about here. Is that what you thought was 'spiritual'? (knowing not what you read or understanding it and making a pretense it supports you)

Look at Jeremiah 50:6 My people have been lost sheep..... Jesus says who those 'lost sheep' are; Christians. John 10:1-29

All are lost before being found. In the case of Jeremiah it is talking about His people Israel mostly I would think. How would it be any surprise to you that they were lost before being saved like other folks?

 

[dad]

Take all the time you need. But in reality, scholars throughout history have viewed this as a reference to 70 AD. Modern eschatology wants everything to be about the Antichrist. Sorry--it just doesn't fit.

Some would be wise men did, no doubt. Just as today we see wild nonsense from supposed know it alls.

This is what the Church Fathers believed. I suppose modern prophecy enthusiasts know better?

They did not believe that the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel was set up! Why make stuff up?

As I said, the Church Fathers saw Daniel's 70th Week Prophecy and the Olivet Discourse of Jesus as saying, essentially, the same thing.

Whatever some popes pushed in error doesn't matter at all.

Christ would come, be cut off, and the Romans would send armies to destroy Jerusalem and the temple. And yes, Jesus fulfilled all 6 of the things Daniel indicated he would do. He brought the sins of Israel to a head, and then provided atonement for them. He was the Anointing and the new Temple of God.

Part of the verse does talk about the people of the future prince. That should tell you that it deals with the future also and specifically. Can you name some verses where Jesus referred to Himself as a temple? Specifically a temple where the antichrist in the end time would set up that great evil thing!!?

Again, you are conflating two separate passages, the Olivet Discourse, which speaks of the Jewish Punishment, and Rev 13, which speaks of the Antichrist. They are not the same thing!

If the abomination of desolation is to be placed (and it is) by that chapter 13 guy, then there is no possible option but that it is talking about that time and guy.

What makes the "Jewish Punishment" the worst in history is its sheer length of time, its duration!

That proves it was not the abomination of desolation spoken about in Daniel.

One tribulation is not worse than another except for its length of time.

Jesus said there was no other time before or after that is like the tribulation. Maybe read about it. The stars and sun go out, all water is turned to blood,all mountains levelled in a shaking,the pit opend, Satan falls to earth etc etc etc etc. No comparison at all to past times.

God's promise to Abraham was the state of Israel, a Christian state.

Except you made that up

Yes, a 1/3 that survives eventually becomes a full nation. Remnants grow into nations, if allowed to do so. Even an entire group constituting 1/3 of the original population would be a "mass" conversion if it happened.

And all of them will be saved.

I'm identifying current conditions with conditions in the Millennium. The present mortal world will be mortal then, as well. The only difference is, Satan is removed, and glorified Christians rule over the earth, together with Christ. The result is that Christian states are protected.

Not really. Other differences are that crops grow real fast as they did before the flood. People live many many centuries again as they did before the flood. All states will be under our (Jesus and His saints) rule. We won't be the ones needing protection! The wicked are the ones in that time that get dealt with swiftly and firmly. We are the ones helping do that!

If indeed the world then will be as the world is now, with the noted exceptions, then the Christian nations will still have people with "regeneration" experiences without full conversions.

There will be some who choose Satan and hate God. Not sure they had some supposed 'regeneration' though!