22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[covenantee]

My mistake. Forgive me. I should have been more specific.

2 Sam 7:13,

He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.​

2 Sam 7:16,

And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
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There are many other places that say the kingdom God promised would be an everlasting kingdom. When the whole history of Israel is considered, obviously the kingdom mentioned in Joshua was not the everlasting kingdom. Assyria and Babylon put an end to that particular kingdom. Clearly, we're still waiting for the everlasting kingdom.

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Rev 11:15,

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.​

This is spoken some time after much of the earth is destroyed and the population decimated. By this time, a third of the world's population would have been killed by smoke, fire, and brimstone. We're still waiting on that, and it has to occur before Jesus' everlasting throne and kingdom is established.

This is the kingdom.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

True when written in the present tense 2,000 years ago.

True ever since.

 

[Rich R]

Are you midtrib or prewrath?

Rom 5:9,

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.​

1 Thess 1:10,

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.​

1 Thess 5:9,

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
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Both Romans and Thessalonians are addressed to Christians (Rom 1:7, and 1 Thes 1). That's all I know about it.

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[WPM]

Rom 5:9,

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.​

1 Thess 1:10,

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.​

1 Thess 5:9,

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
​

Both Romans and Thessalonians are addressed to Christians (Rom 1:7, and 1 Thes 1). That's all I know about it.

​

All Christians should be pre-wrath. When Jesus comes it is the end. We are rescued all the wicked are destroyed.

 

[covenantee]

Whatever it should or should not say, does not change the problem of building an entire doctrine on one verse. Al verses need to be considered. Plus it wouldn't change the fact that all bets are off as to the message when we decide to spiritualize the scriptures instead of taking them for what they plainly say.

Scripture is comprised of both literal and spiritual reality.

Spiritual discernment is necessary to recognize spiritual reality.

 

[covenantee]

Of course. That's what I said.

Good. So what was your point?

 

[Rich R]

This is the kingdom.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

True when written in the present tense 2,000 years ago.

True ever since.

Good verses for sure. But I'm afraid you are mixing up times and peoples.

Colossians was written to the church, to Christians (Col 1:2) and that kingdom is a present reality.

The kingdom God promise Israel is not the same kingdom. As I've pointed out many times, the kingdom God promised Israel is a very physical kingdom in a land that was visible to the eye. It is not yet here. How could it be when there is no king sitting on a throne? There will be, but not yet. That's what Revelation is all about.Jesus doesn't sit on the throne and inaugurate the kingdom God promised Israel until after the devil is thrown into the lake of fire. Clearly, That has not transpired as of today.

 

[Rich R]

Scripture is comprised of both literal and spiritual reality.

Spiritual discernment is necessary to recognize spiritual reality.

Ahhh...the old Gnostic ideas are rising up. They liked to spiritualize otherwise simple verses. They came up with some pretty far out concepts by doing that. I'd avoid it, but that's just me. :)

 

[covenantee]

Ahhh...the old Gnostic ideas are rising up. They liked to spiritualize otherwise simple verses. They came up with some pretty far out concepts by doing that. I'd avoid it, but that's just me. :)

Well, let's run a test, with the first recorded prophecy in Scripture.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Is this literal or spiritual?

Please provide your interpretation.

 

[covenantee]

Good verses for sure. But I'm afraid you are mixing up times and peoples.

Colossians was written to the church, to Christians (Col 1:2) and that kingdom is a present reality.

The kingdom God promise Israel is not the same kingdom. As I've pointed out many times, the kingdom God promised Israel is a very physical kingdom in a land that was visible to the eye. It is not yet here. How could it be when there is no king sitting on a throne? There will be, but not yet. That's what Revelation is all about.Jesus doesn't sit on the throne and inaugurate the kingdom God promised Israel until after the devil is thrown into the lake of fire. Clearly, That has not transpired as of today.

Where in the New Testament do we find "the kingdom God promised Israel"?

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, it is true that in the church there is no Jew nor Gentile. They are in truth all one in Christ. But there is more on the subject than Galatians 3:26-29. We must consider all scripture and avoid building an entire doctrine on a few isolated verses.

Galatians in no way suggests that all Jews and Gentiles are in the church. There are still some who have not confessed Jesus as their lord and are therefore are not born again and are not members of the church of the body, namely some Jews and some Gentiles. We still have Jews and Gentiles besides the church. I would be loathe to suggest that God lied to Paul when He inspired him to write 1 Corinthians 10:32.

Once again, who are "God's People" the original question, and you were answered

Unsaved Jews or any other race aren't included in God's people, it's that simple

 

[Truth7t7]

Rom 5:9,

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.​

1 Thess 1:10,

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.​

1 Thess 5:9,

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
​

Both Romans and Thessalonians are addressed to Christians (Rom 1:7, and 1 Thes 1). That's all I know about it.

​

The standard Pre-Trib presentation, the tribulation is God's wrath, and the church can't be present on earth?

The scripture below clearly teaches the church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ

Lift up your heads, your redemption drawers nigh, it's that simple

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Truth7t7]

Scripture for a nation of promise?

Yes, the Nation of those that follow John N. Darby and C.I. Scofield in the false teachings in "Zionisms" dual covenant theology

 

[covenantee]

Yes, the Nation of those that follow John N. Darby and C.I. Scofield in the false teachings in "Zionisms" dual covenant theology

Nation of false promise.

 

[Rich R]

Well, let's run a test, with the first recorded prophecy in Scripture.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Is this literal or spiritual?

Please provide your interpretation.

Is Jesus literal or spiritual? I take him to be a real, actual, flesh and blood guy. I guess that would make him literal. At least that's how I'd take it.

Gen 3:15 is talking Jesus. In fact all of the OT is about Jesus (John 5:39).

 

[Rich R]

Where in the New Testament do we find "the kingdom God promised Israel"?

Honestly, off the top of my head, I don't think it is in the NT. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. It is however mentioned many times in the OT, including the gospels, which are actually still part of the OT. What we call the NT didn't begin until Pentecost. That's when things took a major turn in God's plan. Moses wasn't born again. Wasn't available until Pentecost.

I think so much is missed when we fail to understand the different times and peoples in the scriptures. What was true at one time and for one people is not necessarily true for all time and all people. We need to keep in mind to whom and when God is speaking. Read Isaiah 1:1. It tells us in crystal clear terms to whom He was speaking. Hint; it's not the church of grace, the time in which we are so blessed to live.

 

[Truth7t7]

Is Jesus literal or spiritual? I take him to be a real, actual, flesh and blood guy. I guess that would make him literal. At least that's how I'd take it.

Gen 3:15 is talking Jesus. In fact all of the OT is about Jesus (John 5:39).

Jesus Christ maintained a glorified "Spiritual" body of flesh and bone, this body ate physical food on earth and was tangible, it could enter a room with doors being shut, and vanish out of human sight?

Have you walked through closed doors or vanished out of human sight lately?

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[covenantee]

Is Jesus literal or spiritual? I take him to be a real, actual, flesh and blood guy. I guess that would make him literal. At least that's how I'd take it.

Gen 3:15 is talking Jesus. In fact all of the OT is about Jesus (John 5:39).

But there's no literal mention of Jesus in the verse. To realize that He is in the verse requires spiritual discernment.

Congrats. You've just spiritualized Scripture's very first prophecy.

If Scripture's very first prophecy is spiritual, do you think that Scripture could contain other spiritual instances?

I'll let you answer.

You're absolutely right that all of the OT is about Jesus. But the name "Jesus" does not appear once in the OT. How can we know when Scripture is referring to Him?

Now you know.

 

[covenantee]

Honestly, off the top of my head, I don't think it is in the NT. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. It is however mentioned many times in the OT, including the gospels, which are actually still part of the OT. What we call the NT didn't begin until Pentecost. That's when things took a major turn in God's plan. Moses wasn't born again. Wasn't available until Pentecost.

I think so much is missed when we fail to understand the different times and peoples in the scriptures. What was true at one time and for one people is not necessarily true for all time and all people. We need to keep in mind to whom and when God is speaking. Read Isaiah 1:1. It tells us in crystal clear terms to whom He was speaking. Hint; it's not the church of grace, the time in which we are so blessed to live.

How is it that something which you consider to be of such significance as "the kingdom that God promised Israel" is not in the NT?

Refer to post 1593 again for reasons.

 

[Keraz]

How is it that something which you consider to be of such significance as "the kingdom that God promised Israel" is not in the NT?

But it is: Matthew 21:43 The Kingdom is taken from you, [ethnic Israel] and given to a people who bear the proper fruit. {Christians}

 

[Rich R]

Jesus Christ maintained a glorified "Spiritual" body of flesh and bone, this body ate physical food on earth and was tangible, it could enter a room with doors being shut, and vanish out of human sight?

Have you walked through closed doors or vanished out of human sight lately?

Jesus Is The Lord

Kind of an odd question, but you probably misunderstood me. No, I can't walk through doors just yet. But later, when Jesus gathers us together in the air, yes.

1Thess 4:16-17,

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Phil 3:21,

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
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