22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Truth7t7

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What???
I don't celebrate translators.
I also use Bibles that are usually similar in age, or older than King Jimmeys.
Sure you read versions older than the 1611 KJV, smiles!

The English language wasn't settled in 1611, and you claim you are reading the Anglo, Teutonic, Germanic, Tartar, whatever prior to the 1611 KJV, smiles again
 

David Boyer

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Sure you read versions older than the 1611 KJV, smiles!

The English language wasn't settled in 1611, and you claim you are reading the Anglo, Teutonic, Germanic, Tartar, whatever prior to the 1611 KJV, smiles again

Aprox the same age.
 

David Boyer

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Wrong:
Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:6, Zechariah 3:9, Isaiah 47:4, Revelation 18:8

When it is known what the Lord will use on His terrible Day of wrath, then understand that it will only take one literal day.

Reference 1+3 don't mention the DOL... and Rev 18:8 is Babylon's destruction.
Not exactly stellar references.
 
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Truth7t7

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No where in the Bible does it say that the DoL is a single day.
It will be a single day, when man's breath is taken from his nostrils (The End)

(IN THAT DAY)

Isaiah 2:20-22KJV
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?
 

Randy Kluth

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It's apparent you are ignorant on translations and Hebrew and Greek texts used

The KJV uses the Greek Text used and received and used by the Church

The New Bible versions use the corrupt Alexandrian Egyptian Greek Text, the 1% minority of Manuscript evidence

Who was (Kurt Aland) that created the Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) that supports the counterfeit versions NIV, NASB, ESV, RSV, Etc?

Example:

(The KJV) shows the figure is a Jew who's fathers worshipped the true Hebrew "God" that won't desire women

(The NIV) has the figure as worshipping many "gods" of his pagan ancestors and their god(s) is a playboy desired by women

Daniel 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Daniel 11:37NIV
37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.

I'm really limited in my knowledge of this, but my brother isn't. It's my understanding that most of the modern translations now take into consideration all of the early manuscripts. Why are you saying the Alexandrian Text is "corrupt?" And even more, how can you say that the Majority Text or Byzantine Text is pure? When Erasmus tried to be the 1st to print out his version, it was based on a limited pool of documents, and the result was a number of errors, including a noticeable shortcut for the book of Revelation.

Before arriving at the KJV numerous corrections and revisions took place. Where did the Received Text suddenly become pure?
 

Truth7t7

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I'm really limited in my knowledge of this, but my brother isn't. It's my understanding that most of the modern translations now take into consideration all of the early manuscripts. Why are you saying the Alexandrian Text is "corrupt?" And even more, how can you say that the Majority Text or Byzantine Text is pure? When Erasmus tried to be the 1st to print out his version, it was based on a limited pool of documents, and the result was a number of errors, including a noticeable shortcut for the book of Revelation.

Before arriving at the KJV numerous corrections and revisions took place. Where did the Received Text suddenly become pure?
Who was (Kurt Aland) that created the Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) that supports the counterfeit versions NIV, NASB, ESV, RSV, Etc?

Example:

(The KJV) shows the figure is a Jew who's fathers worshipped the true Hebrew "God" that won't desire women

(The NIV) has the figure as worshipping many "gods" of his pagan ancestors and their god(s) is a playboy desired by women

Daniel 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Daniel 11:37NIV
37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.
 

Randy Kluth

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Who was (Kurt Aland) that created the Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) that supports the counterfeit versions NIV, NASB, ESV, RSV, Etc?

Aland incorporated all manuscripts into his research to find the purest possible version of the original Greek New Testament. I have a book of his in my library, given me by my brother. He points out the problems associated with those who believe the KGB is free of controversy.

Most modern versions are 99% in agreement. Most Bible versions includes asterisks to show where some manuscripts may suggest a different wording is possible.

Example:

(The KJV) shows the figure is a Jew who's fathers worshipped the true Hebrew "God" that won't desire women

(The NIV) has the figure as worshipping many "gods" of his pagan ancestors and their god(s) is a playboy desired by women

Daniel 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Daniel 11:37NIV
37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.

Translators try to translate without imposing a particular interpretation. You should keep that in mind. Scholars do not agree that only one understanding is possible from Dan 11.37. I do not find your view, that Antiochus 4 will not desire women, is likely.
 
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Truth7t7

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Aland incorporated all manuscripts into his research to find the purest possible version of the original Greek New Testament. I have a book of his in my library, given me by my brother. He points out the problems associated with those who believe the KGB is free of controversy.

Most modern versions are 99% in agreement. Most Bible versions includes asterisks to show where some manuscripts may suggest a different wording is possible.



Translators try to translate without imposing a particular interpretation. You should keep that in mind. Scholars do not agree that only one understanding is possible from Dan 11.37. I do not find your view, that Antiochus 4 will not desire women, is likely.
Modern translations NIV, NASB, ESV, ETC are supported by the Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) this Greek Text was "Created" by Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), and Homosexual Union Supporter And Roman Catholic Jesuit Cardinal (Carlo Maria Martini)

(Kurt Aland) divorced his wife (Ingeborg) and ran off with and married his college student (Barbara Nee Ehlers), being 22 years her senior, (Kurt Aland) died in the sin of Adultery, being married to (Barbara Nee Ehlers) while his wife (Ingeborg Aland) lived

Did God Use Adulterers And A Homosexual Union Supporter To Preserve His Words In The Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece)?

Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), And (Carlo Maria Martini), Are Corrupt Trees, And The (Novum Testamentum Graece) Is Their Corrupt Fruit

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 
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Truth7t7

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Aland incorporated all manuscripts into his research to find the purest possible version of the original Greek New Testament. I have a book of his in my library, given me by my brother. He points out the problems associated with those who believe the KGB is free of controversy.

Most modern versions are 99% in agreement. Most Bible versions includes asterisks to show where some manuscripts may suggest a different wording is possible.



Translators try to translate without imposing a particular interpretation. You should keep that in mind. Scholars do not agree that only one understanding is possible from Dan 11.37. I do not find your view, that Antiochus 4 will not desire women, is likely.
King James Bible Translators
INTRODUCTION
At least sixty men were directly involved in the translation of the King James Bible (hereinafter KJB). Most were Translators, while a few were project overseers, revisers and editors. Some served in several roles. Who were these men? What were their backgrounds? What did they share? In what ways were they different? They were a diverse group. While some were born in large cities and towns, most were from small villages scattered throughout England. Several were the children of university graduates, most were not. They were sons of mariners, farmers, school teachers, cordwainers (leather merchants), fletchers (makers of bows and arrows), ministers, brewers, tailors, and aristocrats. All were members of the Church of England, but their religious views ran the gamut. Some were ardent Puritans, others staunch defenders of the religious establishment. Some believed in pre-destination and limited salvation as taught by John Calvin, while others believed in self-determination and universal access to heaven as taught by Jacobus Arminius.

All of the Translators were university graduates. Oxford and Cambridge claimed nearly equal numbers of Translators as alumni. All of the Translators except one were ordained Church of England priests. While several of the Translators had traveled to the Continent, only one had ventured to the New World. Most of the Translators were married men (38 of 60) with families. Most of the Translators spent a significant portion of their career associated with their colleges and universities as fellows, involved in teaching and administration. As fellows, they were not allowed to marry. As a result many delayed marriage until they had established themselves in church office away from the university. When the translation commenced in 1604-1605, the majority of the Translators, 22, were in their forties, 16 men were in their thirties, 15 in their fifties, 3 in their sixties and 3 in their twenties.

One Translator died in his thirties, six in their forties, nineteen in their fifties, sixteen in their sixties, four in their seventies, three in their eighties and one, over one hundred. Nine of the Translators died before the KJB was published in the 1611.

Most of the Translators were in comfortable economic circumstances during and after their time involved in the translation. The association and friendships they developed during the translation project generally advanced their careers. Some of the Translators went on to high church and academic office. Five went on to serve as bishops and two as archbishops.

They all had a familiarity with the ancient languages of Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and often many more. They came on the historical scene at a time when the knowledge of early biblical texts and language was exploding. Such a flowering of interest and expertise was unique. Bible historian, Gordon Campbell, has observed:

The population from which scholars can now be drawn is much larger than in the seventeenth century, but it would be difficult now to bring together a group of more than fifty scholars with the range of languages and knowledge of other disciplines that characterized the KJB Translators. (Bible – The Story of the King James Version 1611-2011 Oxford, Gordon Campbell, Oxford University Press 2010.)

For such a diverse group, they worked together in harmony during a generally contentious time. They had disagreements, to be sure, but they labored on, year after year. There were no "tell all books" published after the fact. Miles Smith remarked in his preface to the KJB, the Translators "were greater in other men's eyes than in their own, and sought truth rather than their own praise". They approached the task of translation with humility, understanding they were standing on the shoulders of giants like William Tyndale. Believers all, the Translators, according to Smith "craved the assistance of God's Spirit by prayer" as they proceeded in their work.

Though almost all were well known within the religious and academic community of the time, their involvement in the translation went largely unnoticed by the public. Their individual and group effort was not the subject of historical inquiry until many years after the fact. As a result, little information about the process of translation survived. The lives of the Translators and sometimes their very identity became obscured with time. In certain instances, the place of their birth and burial is unknown, and their family circumstance in doubt. Until this anniversary year, few could name even one Translator, let alone sixty. The following brief biographies are written in the hope to shed further light on these men who contributed so much.
 
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WPM

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14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.



This is why time is altered in the book of Rev approaching the day of the Lord....


And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Where does it mention a millennium or a thousand years here as you claim? Nowhere. You add it unto Scripture.

Zechariah 14 occurred 2000 years ago. Zechariah 14:1 declares, Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

Hinneh Behold
yowm- day
baa' cometh
la-Yahweh the Lord
wªchulaq divides
shªlaaleek the spoils
bªqirbeek in the midst

This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the text. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’.

There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the second coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. We cannot therefore, with any certainty, insist upon the fact that this verse is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.

The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."

The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."

A perusal of the Greek LXX Septuagint rendering of this passage supports this interpretation:

idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai comes
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you

When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.

In the New Testament:

Of the five “day of the Lord” passages in the New Testament, they read in the original:

Three are: “hemera kurios” (Acts 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3).

Two are: “hemera ho kurios” (1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14).

In the Greek LXX Septuagint

Of the twenty “day of the Lord” passages in the Old Testament:

Eleven are: “hemera kurios” (Isaiah 13:6, 9, Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:31, 3:14, Obadiah 1:15, Zephaniah 1:14, Malachi 4:5)

Four are: “hemera ho kurios” (Joel 2:11, Amos 5:18, 20, Zephaniah 1:7)

We can see, fifteen align precisely with the Greek New Testament wording and confirm that this would be the normal rendering of the coming of Christ in the Greek. That is 75%.

One reads: “hemera ekeinos kurios” (Jeremiah 46:10), also meaning day of the Lord.

One is: “hemera gar kurios” (Isaiah 2:12), literally meaning day for the Lord.

Finally, there are two references (one after the other in Zephaniah) that refer to the same climactic day. One says, “hemera thumos kurios” (Zephaniah 2:2), meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. The other reads, “hemera orge kurios” (Zephaniah 2:3), similarly meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. Plainly, they are both speaking of the same day in the same reading and in the same context.

That brings us to Zechariah 14:1, which is worded completely different from the rest, saying, “hmerai erxontai tou kuriou,” literally meaning “a day is coming for the LORD.” None of the other passages say this. It is not unreasonable to make a distinction between Zechariah’s description and that of the other nineteen references. The only similarity is the King James Version’s translation of the same in the English. Notwithstanding, regardless of how high one values the A.V. one cannot use this as conclusive proof for equating the day Zechariah is speaking of to the other nineteen. The original rendering supersedes any other translations.

Because this does not literally read “the day of the Lord” then we don’t have to understand it as “the day of the Lord.” If it were, it would have most likely read hemera kurios or hemera ho kurios in the Greek LXX Septuagint. Or failing that: hemera ekeinos kurios.

Whilst the wording of Zechariah 14:1 doesn't prevent it referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus, the phrase ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ and ‘the day of the Lord’ are definitely not synonymous. It is therefore reasonable for us to question Premils identification of it with the second coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent.
 
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Randy Kluth

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You can't possibly think I'm interested in your hero-worshiping the translators of the KJV? The question here is: Are all of the relevant and earliest manuscripts being considered? Since some relevant manuscripts hadn't even been discovered yet, the answer is: no! The KJV was published in 1611, commissioned in 1604. Sinaiticus was found in 1844. Vaticanus, by contrast, was found in 1481.
 

Randy Kluth

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Modern translations NIV, NASB, ESV, ETC are supported by the Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) this Greek Text was "Created" by Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), and Homosexual Union Supporter And Roman Catholic Jesuit Cardinal (Carlo Maria Martini)

(Kurt Aland) divorced his wife (Ingeborg) and ran off with and married his college student (Barbara Nee Ehlers), being 22 years her senior, (Kurt Aland) died in the sin of Adultery, being married to (Barbara Nee Ehlers) while his wife (Ingeborg Aland) lived

Did God Use Adulterers And A Homosexual Union Supporter To Preserve His Words In The Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece)?

Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), And (Carlo Maria Martini), Are Corrupt Trees, And The (Novum Testamentum Graece) Is Their Corrupt Fruit

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

I'm not interested in throwing mud at people. I prefer to judge them on their life's work, as well as on their theology.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Putting everything in bold won't reinforce what you claim. You've no doubt been told many times that the Millennium isn't just a thousand year period--more it is the Kingdom Age, or the Messianic Age, which is referenced a number of times in the OT Prophets. And in those prophecies, yes, men are still viewed as mortal, and yes the Messiah's throne is established here upon the earth.

God has long had a temporary form of His Kingdom here on earth, through the theocratic politics of OT Israel and through the Christian politics of Christian nations. The final form of this Kingdom, naturally, will also be upon this earth. Earth is the place where the Messianic Kingdom will take place, according to the Scriptures.
You say that people with mortal flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of God. Scripture says mortal "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).
 
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Truth7t7

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I'm not interested in throwing mud at people. I prefer to judge them on their life's work, as well as on their theology.
Gods words have judged Kurt Aland, Randy's Preference Doesn't Matter

(Kurt Aland) divorced his wife (Ingeborg) and ran off with and married his college student (Barbara Nee Ehlers), being 22 years her senior, (Kurt Aland) died in the sin of Adultery, being married to (Barbara Nee Ehlers) while his wife (Ingeborg Aland) lived

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Hebrews 13:4KJV
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), And (Carlo Maria Martini), Are Corrupt Trees, And The (Novum Testamentum Graece) Is Their Corrupt Fruit

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 
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covenantee

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Gods words have judged Kurt Aland, Randy's Preference Doesn't Matter

(Kurt Aland) divorced his wife (Ingeborg) and ran off with and married his college student (Barbara Nee Ehlers), being 22 years her senior, (Kurt Aland) died in the sin of Adultery, being married to (Barbara Nee Ehlers) while his wife (Ingeborg Aland) lived

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Hebrews 13:4KJV
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), And (Carlo Maria Martini), Are Corrupt Trees, And The (Novum Testamentum Graece) Is Their Corrupt Fruit

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Peter denied Christ, far worse than any adultery, yet Christ forgave him.

Can Christ not forgive adultery?
 

Truth7t7

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Peter denied Christ, far worse than any adultery, yet Christ forgave him.

Can Christ not forgive adultery?
Pretty hard to be forgiven of Adultery, when
They die being married to another woman while
Their wife lives

Hebrews 13:4KJV
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
 

covenantee

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Pretty hard to be forgiven of Adultery, when
They die being married to another woman while
Their wife lives

Hebrews 13:4KJV
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
No harder than Peter's denial of Christ, a far worse sin.
 

Timtofly

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So the first half of the seven years of the wrath of God then.


Which trumpet? His voice that calls us up at the Rapture before this seven years is like a trumpet. The seventh trumpet sounds ending the rule of man and announcing the return of Christ.

Revelation 11:15

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The abomination of desolation is not 42 months of anything. It is after the abomination is set up that there remains 42 months till Jesus returns.
Satan sets up the AoD after the 42 months has already started 3.5 days after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. There is no 7 years. In the midst of the week of days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Jesus is on earth with His angels during the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. But no where does it claim they last for 3.5 years prior to the 42 months of the AoD that starts while the 7th Trumpet is sounding for 7 days. Those days keep getting shorter the longer the 6th Seal is withheld for the fullness of the Gentiles, the sake of the elect. So there cannot be a defined 7 year period, as the length keeps changing.
 
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