24 elders in Heaven

[Fred J]

Dear FredJ,
To believe that Enoch and Elijah never died is to deny many other teachings of scripture.

Scripture teaches that death passed down from Adam to all men and that includes both Enoch and Elijah who were sinners just like all of Adam and Eve's offspring are.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If Enoch and Elijah never died because of their sins, then this scripture is wrong, too:

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Enoch and Elijah are both in the grave waiting for the "better resurrection" that the OT faithful will receive at the end of this age.

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Because the OT faithful were justified by their faith, they will experience a better resurrection - but that resurrection has not occurred yet. When it does, the OT faithful will be made "perfect" by Christ's work of conversion with the help of the Elect.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Paul even says that Christ is the firstborn from the dead so that He will have preeminence in all things.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

At this time, Christ is the only person who has been bodily resurrected from the grave. Everyone else is dead and in the grave just as Paul explained in 1Thes 4:13-18. Paul told the Thessalonians to comfort one another with the hope of the coming resurrection from the grave. If anyone was already resurrected from the grave and in heaven, Paul would have said so in that portion of scripture.

You said:
For when 'Enoch' and 'Elijah' were taken up to Heaven, they did not have a change of body.

Your statement above is contradicted by this scripture:

1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If Enoch and Elijah did not have a change of body, how can they be in the Kingdom of Heaven since they would still have bodies of corruption (flesh and blood)?

The bottom line is that Enoch and Elijah were both sinners. And because of their sins, they both died like all sinners do. To this day, they remain in the grave waiting for the bodily resurrection with the other OT faithful who likewise died.

Joe

What a waste of 'quotes'?

Just quote the scripture where Enoch and Elijah died and buried, thank you.

 

[Fred J]

Not good to isolate the 24 elders away from those Revelation 3 & 4 Chapters that contain more info about them which defines what TIMING that is speaking about.

Rev 4:4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
KJV

Christ's servants receive their rewards only at the time of Lord Jesus future 2nd coming. That is when His elect will reign with Him with those crowns.

Rev 4:10-11
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before Him That sat on the throne, and worship Him That liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created."
KJV

Rev 5:8-10
8 And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

That time of redemption only happens at Lord Jesus' FUTURE 2nd coming. That is when His elect shall reign on the earth with Him per The Old Testament prophets.

Thus those 24 elders MIGHT means 12 Patriarchs/prophets, and 12 Apostles, but we do not yet know for sure. We are not told yet who they, so all else is just speculation.

i disagree, that's your 'spin' on things to suite your own 'twisted version'.

According to ch. 4, these 24 elders were already seated on thrones in Heaven, and there's no mention of them 'coming out of Tribulation' or taken up in the 'first resurrection'.

The ones mentioned are the 'brides of Christ', who were 'persecuted' for the testimony of Christ and the word of GOD.

No thank you

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think you are too close to the forest, so to speak ........and you need to stand back a bit, so to speak.
Anyone who literally enters that 'other world' like Elijah, Enoch and Moses will have new bodies just as Jesus had a changed body, just as we will when the time comes....which means we don't have to worry about juggling 'before the law or after the law'

I don't definitively know who the 24 elders are but I can do some guessing.

Jesus' ministry mirrored Israel's ministry of sorts.
Here's a rough sketch and no doubt needs either more work or thrown out....
Israel had seventy men know as the Sanhedrin. They were administrators/ judges; Jesus had the seventy who were privy to his circle; he sent them out two by two as his representatives.
Israel had twelve tribes, Jesus had twelve apostles.

Perhaps the 24 elders you mentioned are 12 from the old covenant and twelve from the new? Like I said, this is just a pretty loose guess because I haven't thought it through to my own satisfaction

Impressive quiet, mean that! Honest also...

The twenty-four elders, represent the royal priesthood of the Kingdom (Rev. 5:9-10; 14:3), as based upon the pattern of the Davidic
arrangements.

1 Chronicles 24:3–5, King David, aided by Zadok (from Eleazar’s line) and Ahimelech (from Ithamar’s line), organized the descendants of Aaron into twenty-four courses, each assigned a rotating schedule of temple service.

This new order, after the manner of Melchizedek, will be composed of both Jew and Gentile, symbolized by the 12 + 12 and refers to the glorified saints who belong to another priestly order not based on Torah but promises!

@dak why in Revelation 7:7 does Levi have an inheritance? Deuteronomy 10:9

 

[Fred J]

There's no scripture to support such 'twisted version' claim that those like Enoch and Elijah taken up to Heaven, will have a change of body nor had, like Jesus.

There's no scripture to support such 'twisted version' claim that Jesus had a change of body.

But there is scripture to support that those dead in Christ shall rise and those alive and remain, will be 'changed' on earth before taken up to Heaven.

There is also scripture to support, Enoch and Elijah were taken up in the same body.

There's also scripture to support the living in Christ are being water baptized for themselves and for the dead in salvation.

 

[quietthinker]

Impressive quiet, mean that! Honest also...

The twenty-four elders, represent the royal priesthood of the Kingdom (Rev. 5:9-10; 14:3), as based upon the pattern of the Davidic
arrangements.

1 Chronicles 24:3–5, King David, aided by Zadok (from Eleazar’s line) and Ahimelech (from Ithamar’s line), organized the descendants of Aaron into twenty-four courses, each assigned a rotating schedule of temple service.

This new order, after the manner of Melchizedek, will be composed of both Jew and Gentile, symbolized by the 12 + 12 and refers to the glorified saints who belong to another priestly order not based on Torah but promises!

@dak why in Revelation 7:7 does Levi have an inheritance? Deuteronomy 10:9

Hmmm, interesting....and something to chew on!

 

[quietthinker]

There's no scripture to support such 'twisted version' claim that those like Enoch and Elijah taken up to Heaven, will have a change of body nor had, like Jesus.

There's no scripture to support such 'twisted version' claim that Jesus had a change of body.

But there is scripture to support that those dead in Christ shall rise and those alive and remain, will be 'changed' on earth before taken up to Heaven.

There is also scripture to support, Enoch and Elijah were taken up in the same body.

There's also scripture to support the living in Christ are being water baptized for themselves and for the dead in salvation.

Why shouldn't we take this scripture ....

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
'Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed'

.....as applying to Enoch, Elijah and Moses?

 

[Fred J]

Why shouldn't we take this scripture ....

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
'Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed'

.....as applying to Enoch, Elijah and Moses?

It's the New Testament scripture referring to those in Christ saved by grace according to the Gospel, even to the remnant of Jews saved by grace.

It's Paul's letter written to the church believers, and not to the dead before Christ, who's flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD.

'We' as referring to the chosen Apostles including him and the church who are in Christ.

This is an event that will take place, since only Christ has been the 'firstfruit of resurrection', as the 'first resurrection' of 'church saints'. (Revelation 20:4) (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)

There's no scripture support of any 'patriarch of Israel' included in the 'first resurrection' of the dead in Christ.

Nor they'll be changed like them here on earth, nor Enoch and Elijah will be changed in Heaven.

 

[quietthinker]

It's the New Testament scripture referring to those in Christ saved by grace according to the Gospel, even to the remnant of Jews saved by grace.

It's Paul's letter written to the church believers, and not to the dead before Christ, who's flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD.

'We' as referring to the chosen Apostles including him and the church who are in Christ.

This is an event that will take place, since only Christ has been the 'firstfruit of resurrection', as the 'first resurrection' of 'church saints'. (Revelation 20:4) (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)

There's no scripture support of any 'patriarch of Israel' included in the 'first resurrection' of the dead in Christ.

Nor they'll be changed like them here on earth, nor Enoch and Elijah will be changed in Heaven.

You make matters more complicated for yourself than necessary. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow....Jesus revealed this.

 

[Davy]

Dear Davy,
The spirit phrase "last day" is when the spiritual resurrection occurs within a person.

No it is not... Origen. The "last day" Jesus mentioned with His promise to raise up those of His is about the FUTURE RESURRECTION on the day of His FUTURE 2nd coming.

Oh, I'm sorry, you're not Origen of the 3rd century Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt who tried to allegorize literal events in The Bible and was excommunicated by the early Church. You sound just like him though.

 

[Fred J]

You make matters more complicated for yourself than necessary. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow....Jesus revealed this.

You can't even quote scripture to support your theory, and there's none about the 'patriarch of Israel' already resurrected and changed..

But you can take the scripture of the church saints in Christ, their 'first resurrection', and the changed of their body before taken up.

And claim it as the 'first resurrection' of the 'patriarch of Israel', the change of their body, and also the change of body for Enoch and Elijah in Heaven, like Jesus had the change body?

This matters of yours without any scripture to support it, is more complicated than mine, so much for words in vain.

No thank you

 

[Davy]

i disagree, that's your 'spin' on things to suite your own 'twisted version'.

According to ch. 4, these 24 elders were already seated on thrones in Heaven, and there's no mention of them 'coming out of Tribulation' or taken up in the 'first resurrection'.

You are only following a doctrine of men, and it looks like its man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY that you are following, which wrongly believes those 24 elders are already reigning with Christ today in Heaven, and having already received their rewards! That's where your idea comes from, NOT from those Scriptures. And it's EASY to know I speak the Truth by the following...

Rev 5:9-13
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

WHEN are Christ's faithful servants to be made kings and priests, to reign with Jesus? At Jesus' FUTURE COMING. That hasn't happened yet today! Anyone that says it has is telling a huge LIE.

These Scriptures about the 24 elders around the throne are in that same group singing that "new song". I wonder just WHAT song that will be? Most likely the "song of Moses" written of in Deuteronomy 31-32 and mentioned in the Revelation 15 Chapter, which contains yet ANOTHER FUTURE FORWARD TIMELINE VIEW LIKE THIS ONE.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
KJV

But go ahead, be a SUCKER for men's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY that you have believed and that is teaching you those 24 elders are ruling in Heaven right now with Lord Jesus.

Here's the icing on the cake...

Heb 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
KJV

Hebrews 11 is especially about the Old Testament saints. That would supposedly... be half of the 24 elders of Rev.4 & 5. They are NOT to be "made perfect" without us. That means they still have NOT yet received their rewards. Rev.4 & 5 is giving a FUTURE-FORWARD TIMELINE VIEW.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You are only following a doctrine of men, and it looks like its man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY that you are following, which wrongly believes those 24 elders are already reigning with Christ today in Heaven, and having already received their rewards!

Ignore Davy I misread your post

 

[Davy]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Just in case you are not aware of how man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory treats those Revelation 4 & 5 Chapters about the 24 elders, the heart of their doctrine that makes them wrongly believe those 24 elders have already received their rewards in Christ, and are reigning with Him now in Heaven, is because of how Pre-trib has ADDED another coming by Lord Jesus Christ PRIOR to the "great tribulation". It's easy for them to accept that extra coming, so it's also easy for them to accept that the rewards have already been handed out to those 24 elders.

The idea of those 24 elders surrounding the throne in Heaven is as far as they can 'think', while not being able to consider that timeline could be a future forward view for after... Christ's future return. Since the pre-tribbers have a big enough problem with sticking to actual written Biblical 'timelines', because of their ADDED rapture prior to the tribulation, it's no wonder they can't grasp the proper timeline of those 24 elders in Revelation 4 & 5. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly teaches that by the Revelation 4 Chapter, the Church will have already been raptured prior to the tribulation.

 

[Davy]

Ignore Davy I misread your post

That's what some among the false Pre-trib Rapture theory have told me they believe. But I am well aware that most believe the Church is raptured at or by the time of that Revelation 4 Chapter. Either idea is not Biblical, since Jesus showed His future coming and gathering of His Church will be AFTER the tribulation.

 

[Hiddenthings]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Just in case you are not aware of how man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory treats those Revelation 4 & 5 Chapters about the 24 elders, the heart of their doctrine that makes them wrongly believe those 24 elders have already received their rewards in Christ, and are reigning with Him now in Heaven, is because of how Pre-trib has ADDED another coming by Lord Jesus Christ PRIOR to the "great tribulation". It's easy for them to accept that extra coming, so it's also easy for them to accept that the rewards have already been handed out to those 24 elders.

The idea of those 24 elders surrounding the throne in Heaven is as far as they can 'think', while not being able to consider that timeline could be a future forward view for after... Christ's future return. Since the pre-tribbers have a big enough problem with sticking to actual written Biblical 'timelines', because of their ADDED rapture prior to the tribulation, it's no wonder they can't grasp the proper timeline of those 24 elders in Revelation 4 & 5. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly teaches that by the Revelation 4 Chapter, the Church will have already been raptured prior to the tribulat

This vision (chapter 4), taken as a whole, symbolically represents the political structure of the future Kingdom of God on earth. It does not depict heaven as it existed at the time of John or at any previous moment. Rather, it is part of the prophetic section of the Apocalypse that reveals “things which must take place” (Rev. 4:1). I.e. Yet to be fulfilled in the earth!

 

[Davy]

There's no scripture to support such 'twisted version' claim that those like Enoch and Elijah taken up to Heaven, will have a change of body nor had, like Jesus.

There's no scripture to support such 'twisted version' claim that Jesus had a change of body.

You are wrong about that. 1 Cor.15:45 reveals that Jesus' body was made "a quickening spirit", as does 1 Peter 3:18-19 reveals also. Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

But there is scripture to support that those dead in Christ shall rise and those alive and remain, will be 'changed' on earth before taken up to Heaven.

Most of you Pre-tribbers haven't even rightly studied the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Scripture as written. Your preachers only mention the Chapter in passing, pulling just a few words from it. Paul shows Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes, that those of us still alive shall not precede (KJV "prevent") those asleep in Christ, meaning they resurrect first. And that's another thing, the future resurrection is ONLY on the LAST DAY of this world, NOT prior to the "great tribulation". Then Paul says in 1 Thess.4, those of us still alive on earth will be 'changed' (i.e., to the "spiritual body" he taught in that Chapter) and "caught up" to Jesus (and the asleep saints with Him). Then in Zechariah 14 it reveals His descent with all... His saints is to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

And in 2 Cor.5, Apostle Paul showed that we already, today, have the spirit body dwelling inside our flesh. Paul said that if our earthly tabernacle were dissolved, we still have another... body, not made with hands, but eternal in the heavens. Thus the 'asleep' saints are NOT in the grave in the backyard. They are with Jesus now, in their spirit bodies.

 

[Davy]

This vision (chapter 4), taken as a whole, symbolically represents the political structure of the future Kingdom of God on earth. It does not depict heaven as it existed at the time of John or at any previous moment. Rather, it is part of the prophetic section of the Apocalypse that reveals “things which must take place” (Rev. 4:1). I.e. Yet to be fulfilled in the earth!

You are leaving out the misinterpretation of the Pre-trib Rapture followers that by that Revelation 4 Chapter the Church is raptured to Heaven, which is not true.

This same kind of timeline confusion happens with many in the Revelation 7 Chapter about the "great multitude". The latter verses about that "great multitude" is misunderstood as to what timing it is, when unmistakable future events that only are fulfilled after Christ's future return are being given.

 

[Hiddenthings]

And in 2 Cor.5, Apostle Paul showed that we already, today, have the spirit body dwelling inside our flesh. Paul said that if our earthly tabernacle were dissolved, we still have another... body, not made with hands, but eternal in the heavens. Thus the 'asleep' saints are NOT in the grave in the backyard. They are with Jesus now, in their spirit bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:1: "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Yet to be revealed at his coming Davy! - he's speaking to the anchored hope you can have behind the curtain!

Hebrews 6:19 "We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul (life), a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain,"

Where does it say that this hope / house will be revealed at his coming?

 

[Hiddenthings]

You are leaving out the misinterpretation of the Pre-trib Rapture followers that by that Revelation 4 Chapter the Church is raptured to Heaven, which is not true.

This belief is false - agree

This same kind of timeline confusion happens with many in the Revelation 7 Chapter about the "great multitude". The latter verses about that "great multitude" is misunderstood as to what timing it is, when unmistakable future events that only are fulfilled after Christ's future return are being given.

After the sealing is completed, and at the return of Christ!

 

[Davy]

2 Corinthians 5:1: "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Yet to be revealed at his coming Davy! - he's speaking to the anchored hope you can have behind the curtain!

You are trying to be SLY!

You intentionally disregard that above phrase, "if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved...".

That phrase sets the CONDITION of that "building of God" being manifest in the heavenly.

That building of course is the "spiritual body" which Paul covered back in the 1 Corinthians 15 Chapter. It is immediately manifested in the heavenly when our flesh body dies. I have covered the Eccl.12:5-7, Matthew 10:28, Matthew 12:25; 1 Peter 3 and 4, etc., Bible Scriptures on this very matter several times on the forum. The theory of 'Soul Sleep' is a doctrine tradition originating from the Jews with their misinterpretation of the Genesis 2:7 Scripture about the soul.