24 elders in Heaven

[Hiddenthings]

i disagree.

They are the remaining 'all Israel' 144, 000 from the 12 tribes in the end shall be saved, after the full number of Gentiles have come into salvation.

12 x 12 = 144 Fred - how is your math?

 

[keithr]

I learned it by the guidance of the Spirit of Truth. There is no other way to learn it.

1 John 4:1-6 WEB

(1) Beloved, don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.​

(2) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,​

(3) and every spirit who doesn’t confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the Antichrist, of whom you have heard that it comes. Now it is in the world already.​

(4) You are of God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world.​

(5) They are of the world. Therefore they speak of the world, and the world hears them.​

(6) We are of God. He who knows God listens to us. He who is not of God doesn’t listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.​

You seem to be a false prophet to me!

In the three verses that you quoted on the great tribulation, they are teaching about the time an Elect person spends in a spiritually worsened condition with the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling them.

No they're not! Matthew 24:21 is Jesus teaching about the end of the age; Revelation 2:22 is part of the letter to the church at Thyatira condemning some Christians who had been led astray; Revelation 7:14 is about those who have gone through The Great Tribulation and are in heaven before the throne of God.

Christ teaches how this happens to a babe here:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Here is what Christ is teaching in the passage using His spiritual language:

Your interpretation is once again wild and illogical. This is what Jesus ia actually teaching:

Taking the passage in context, after Jesus refers to the Day of Judgement and the scribes and Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign, Jesus refers to them as "An evil and adulterous generation" (verse 39) and contrasts this generation with past generations, who he says would judge and condemn the current generation. In verse 41 he says that the evil men of Nineveh (ignorant and wicked pagan Assyrians, not Jews) would in the day of judgement, by their conduct of having repented when threatened with “temporal” judgment by a mere man - Jonah, condemn the current generation of Jews, who, professing to be enlightened, though threatened for their great wickedness with eternal punishment “by the Son of God” - a far greater being than Jonah - repented not, and must therefore meet with a far heavier condemnation. Similarly, in verse 42, the Queen of Sheba (again not a Jew) would also condmen this generation of Jews in the Day of Judgement, because she came a great distance to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but the Jews of this generation would not listen to the wisdom of one much greater than Solomon, though present with them.

Jesus then uses the analogy of a an unclean spirit leaving a man and returning with seven others, The Jews of former generations were like a man possessed by a demon, the Jews of this generation are like a man possessed by many demons.

Jesus ends with "Even so shall it be with this generation". Barnes' Notes says:

This shows the scope and design of this illustration. The state of that man was a representation of that generation of people. Much might be done to cure their unbelief, much to reform them externally; but such was the firm hold which the principles of infidelity and wickedness had taken of their minds “as their proper habitation,” that they would return, after all the means used to reform them, and they would be worse and worse. And this was literally accomplished. After all the instructions and miracles of the Saviour and his apostles; after all that had been done for them by holy people and prophets, and by the judgments and mercies of God; and after all their external temporary reformations - like the temporary departure of an evil spirit from a man possessed - yet such was their love of wickedness that the nation became worse and worse. They increased in crime, like the seven-fold misery and wretchedness of the man into whose bosom the seven additional evil spirits came. They rejected God’s messengers, abused his mercies, crucified his Son, and God gave their temple, and capital, and nation into the hands of the Romans, and thousands of the people to destruction.​

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

You have clearly not studied Revelation 17 carefully enough. The seven headed beast with 10 horns is symbolic of kingdoms thoughout history - Revelation 17:9-18 WEB:

(9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.​

(10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.​

(11) The beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goes to destruction.​

(12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.​

(13) These have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast.​

(14) These will war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and those who are with him are called chosen and faithful.”​

(15) He said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.​

(16) The ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute, will make her desolate, will strip her naked, will eat her flesh, and will burn her utterly with fire.​

(17) For God has put in their hearts to do what he has in mind, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.​

(18) The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”​

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (like Lot did)

Actually Lot asked to flee to a nearby small town, called Zoar (meaning little or smallness) - Genesis 19:18-22 (WEB):

(18) Lot said to them, “Oh, not so, my lord.​

(19) See now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have magnified your loving kindness, which you have shown to me in saving my life. I can’t escape to the mountain, lest evil overtake me, and I die.​

(20) See now, this city is near to flee to, and it is a little one. Oh let me escape there (isn’t it a little one?), and my soul will live.”​

(21) He said to him, “Behold, I have granted your request concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken.​

(22) Hurry, escape there, for I can’t do anything until you get there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.​

Since I don't believe you are going to be able to receive what I presented above, there is no point in responding to your other comments. My response would just fall on deaf ears like my response above probably has. If you are starting to understand though, I am willing to continue our discussion.

I do not believe most of what you have written, and I do not find it in the slightest bit convincing. So I will definitely now stop discussing all these off topic points that you keep making.

2 Corinthians 11:3 (WEB):

(3) But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.​

 

[NayborBear]

i disagree.

They are the remaining 'all Israel' 144, 000 from the 12 tribes in the end shall be saved, after the full number of Gentiles have come into salvation.

Frankly Scallop? I don't give a clam as to what you agree OR disagree with, or about!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Let's begin, for these 24 elders in Heaven are probably the 'patriarchs of Israel', do you all agree or disagree?

Is there any Biblical reference it is them and they have been taken up already?

And do the 'patriarchs' of the Old Testament result to 24 of them by count?

Someone probably already shared this… I haven’t read all the post yet. Your post does make me think of:
Ephesians 2:18-22 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [19] Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom you also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

And also considering an elder Hebrews 11:1-4 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [2] For by it the elders obtained a good report. [3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[Fred J]

12 x 12 = 144 Fred - how is your math?

Likewise how's your 'brain', 'twisted' to put a 'spin' on the written word of GOD.

There's no 12x12 nor 12+12 written in regards the 24 elders in Heaven, by 'folly' you're making things up.

144,000 are the descendants of Jacob's 12 sons, where even the sons are not included in that number.

So much more the 'patriarchs of Israel' who walked with GOD and are in a different level from their descendants.

Whom GOD made covenants and promises with in regards their descendants and 'offspring' Jesus Christ, and did come to pass.

 

[Fred J]

Frankly Scallop? I don't give a clam as to what you agree OR disagree with, or about!

Is this all the 'baloney' you've got in regards the thread topic?

Being 'cocky' will not make you wise but folly, this is not your 'social club', but a Bible Study platform.

 

[Fred J]

Someone probably already shared this… I haven’t read all the post yet. Your post does make me think of:
Ephesians 2:18-22 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [19] Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom you also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

And also considering an elder Hebrews 11:1-4 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [2] For by it the elders obtained a good report. [3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Thank you.

But the 'patriarch of Israel' or the '24 elders in Heaven' in the Old Testament GOD made covenants and promises with them in regards their descendants and offspring Jesus Christ.

Where to what you've shared from the New Testament covenant and promise, only a remnant of Israelites schedule to obtain it.

As according to Romans ch. 11, 'all Israel' shall be saved last without the New Testament and repentance, but by the 'mercy' of GOD.

Apparently the New Testament was given and made by GOD with the 'remnant of Israelites saved by grace' in Israel.

And through them as 'commissioned' by Jesus, was then given and made with the Gentiles saved by grace and through faith.

And until by the same New Testament the full number of them Gentiles by grace be come in.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Hiddenthings]

Likewise how's your 'brain', 'twisted' to put a 'spin' on the written word of GOD.

There's no 12x12 nor 12+12 written in regards the 24 elders in Heaven, by 'folly' you're making things up.

144,000 are the descendants of Jacob's 12 sons, where even the sons are not included in that number.

So much more the 'patriarchs of Israel' who walked with GOD and are in a different level from their descendants.

Whom GOD made covenants and promises with in regards their descendants and 'offspring' Jesus Christ, and did come to pass.

If your math says 12 + 12 = 144,000, I’d say your knuckles clearly didn’t get rapped hard enough back in school!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As according to Romans ch. 11, 'all Israel' shall be saved last without the New Testament and repentance, but by the 'mercy' of GOD.

Here is a question I have always wondered about. When you point to the scriptures where “all of Israel” will be saved…some without the New Testament and repentance, but by the ‘mercy’ of God. It also says not all are Israel:
Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Is not all are Israel …these after the flesh, these are not the children of God? Yet,
1 Corinthians 10:16-18 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? [17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. [18] Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

I’m going somewhere with this. Are you saying all of Israel will be saved …both those after the flesh AND those after the Spirit? Is this what you mean by “ALL”? My question is if we hold firm to both those after the flesh AND those after the Spirit are both “All” saved, even God circling back around in the end times to revisit those born of flesh during a seven year tribulation to save “all”….do I understand that perspective?

If there is one thing I believe about God is that what He does for one, He does the same for the other. Being fair and not a respecter of persons.
Romans 2:9-11 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; [10] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: [11] For there is no respect of persons with God.

The point or the question is ….if our perspective of “All” is applied to “All” of Israel will be saved both those after the flesh AND those after the Spirit …those born after the Spirit through the New Testament? And those born after the flesh not through the New Testament and repentance but by the ‘ Mercy’ of God…

…should we not stay consistent and apply the same to the Gentiles? Or do we say All of Israel both those after the flesh and those born after the Spirit …you said without the New Testament which is ‘The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? [(the New Testament?) 17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. <where two is made One???… yet God being a respecter of person doesn’t afford the same ‘without the New Testament and repentance, but by the ‘mercy’ of God.‘ to the Gentiles??

That is so confusing. I’m not saying you but I’ve read those who stand on “All” yet flip it concerning the gentiles? It makes no sense to me their resolve on God will do this for the Jews, both flesh and Spirit but you better not ask if God will do the same for the Gentiles? Which is it “by His Mercy” …?

 

[Fred J]

Here is a question I have always wondered about. When you point to the scriptures where “all of Israel” will be saved…some without the New Testament and repentance, but by the ‘mercy’ of God. It also says not all are Israel:
Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Is not all are Israel …these after the flesh, these are not the children of God? Yet,
1 Corinthians 10:16-18 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? [17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. [18] Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

I’m going somewhere with this. Are you saying all of Israel will be saved …both those after the flesh AND those after the Spirit? Is this what you mean by “ALL”? My question is if we hold firm to both those after the flesh AND those after the Spirit are both “All” saved, even God circling back around in the end times to revisit those born of flesh during a seven year tribulation to save “all”….do I understand that perspective?

If there is one thing I believe about God is that what He does for one, He does the same for the other. Being fair and not a respecter of persons.
Romans 2:9-11 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; [10] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: [11] For there is no respect of persons with God.

The point or the question is ….if our perspective of “All” is applied to “All” of Israel will be saved both those after the flesh AND those after the Spirit …those born after the Spirit through the New Testament? And those born after the flesh not through the New Testament and repentance but by the ‘ Mercy’ of God…

…should we not stay consistent and apply the same to the Gentiles? Or do we say All of Israel both those after the flesh and those born after the Spirit …you said without the New Testament which is ‘The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? [(the New Testament?) 17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. <where two is made One???… yet God being a respecter of person doesn’t afford the same ‘without the New Testament and repentance, but by the ‘mercy’ of God.‘ to the Gentiles??

That is so confusing. I’m not saying you but I’ve read those who stand on “All” yet flip it concerning the gentiles? It makes no sense to me their resolve on God will do this for the Jews, both flesh and Spirit but you better not ask if God will do the same for the Gentiles? Which is it “by His Mercy” …?

Let's start simple.

As it is written; 'All Israel shall be saved' and not All of Israel shall be saved.

'All Israel' is referring to the 'Jews' or 'Hebrews', who cam out of Egypt with Moses.

Who is a true 'Jew' or 'Hebrew'?

The 'ones' who are descended from the lineage of Jacob and his 12 sons, named, 'The 'Twelve Tribes of Israel'.

Or, 'The House of Jacob', since Jacob's name is changed to 'Israel', meaning, 'The one who wrestle with God'.

They are the 144,000 in the book of Revelation, 12,000 from each tribe to be exact, as to 'All Israel shall be saved' in the end.

This does not include the number of 'Remnant Jews or Israelites saved by grace', through Jesus and the Gospel He gave.

From that day, beginning with the nation Israel first, until today together with the Gentiles, whom we know not, but only GOD knows.

GOD through Jesus Christ have HIS math perfect and correct, which we're unable to comprehend, but merely by faith believe.

Like for instants, i don't understand why they are all in exact number from each tribe, but in faith i can only believe that GOD works in mysterious ways.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ