N2thelight,You stated:"Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. My response: My thoughts exactly. Based on these thoughts, what is your take on Noah’s Ark?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
2nd Thess. /Rapture/Man of Sin
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there ar two ways we can look at 2 Thess 2: 3, [1] There has already been a falling away, a large percentage of the Church has fallen from Biblicle truths, But the truth of this verse is.[2] The word "falling away" in the Greek is, [apostasia] a departing, The devil can't operate until the Church has gone. This is how it reads," That day wont come until the Church has gone, then the devil can opperate" v 7--8, Only the church who now stops the devil, will stop him until it is taken out of the way, "Departed."
there ar two ways we can look at 2 Thess 2: 3, [1] There has already been a falling away, a large percentage of the Church has fallen from Biblicle truths, But the truth of this verse is.[2] The word "falling away" in the Greek is, [apostasia] a departing, The devil can't operate until the Church has gone. This is how it reads," That day wont come until the Church has gone, then the devil can opperate" v 7--8, Only the church who now stops the devil, will stop him until it is taken out of the way, "Departed."
The devil has infiltrated the church long ago. I'd hardly say that it holds him out of the way because people flock to other religions continually. We have several diverse religions numbering in the billions today with the church in full swing.There is a condition placed upon II Thessalonians 2:3 in the following verse:II Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The subsuquent "he" can't possibly be the church because the church is the bride of Christ.
My response: My thoughts exactly. Based on these thoughts, what is your take on Noah’s Ark?
I can't speak for n2, but we see eye to eye on this topic.Contrary to what pretrib. reapture believers all over assert, Noah survived the tribulation of the flood because he followed YHVH. He was in no way removed from the situation which is what the whole rapture scenario rests on. God instructed him to build and ark where he literally rode the storm out. God was there with him and his family and in no wise had to pull him off the earth to keep him safe. The same carries through with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego when it'd documented that the very angel of the Lord was in the furnace with them!
The devil has infiltrated the church long ago. I'd hardly say that it holds him out of the way because people flock to other religions continually. We have several diverse religions numbering in the billions today with the church in full swing.There is a condition placed upon II Thessalonians 2:3 in the following verse:II Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The subsuquent "he" can't possibly be the church because the church is the bride of Christ.
My response: My thoughts exactly. Based on these thoughts, what is your take on Noah’s Ark?
I can't speak for n2, but we see eye to eye on this topic.Contrary to what pretrib. reapture believers all over assert, Noah survived the tribulation of the flood because he followed YHVH. He was in no way removed from the situation which is what the whole rapture scenario rests on. God instructed him to build and ark where he literally rode the storm out. God was there with him and his family and in no wise had to pull him off the earth to keep him safe. The same carries through with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego when it'd documented that the very angel of the Lord was in the furnace with them!
Denver,You stated: Contrary to what pretrib. reapture believers all over assert, Noah survived the tribulation of the flood because he followed YHVH. He was in no way removed from the situation which is what the whole rapture scenario rests on. God instructed him to build and ark where he literally rode the storm out. God was there with him and his family and in no wise had to pull him off the earth to keep him safe.My response: I would like to clarify that I am not pre-trib, but post-trib resurrectionist. That said, I agree with you and would like to assert that the parable of Noah's ark is an ensample to us. In other words, God has provided instructions and a way to physically escape the coming flood of persecution (during the 1260 days of the GT) just as He provided a way and instructions for Noah.Prebies have there heads buried in prophetic sand. However, they do recognize the scriptures do contain hope of escaping the coming catastrophy, as misguided as it may be. We posties (who are aware that there is no rapture to take out of harms way) fail to recognize the instructions all together, immediately label the instructions as pre-trib. Again, my point is that God has provided a way and instructions for escaping the GT and it is not the pre-trib rapture.In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Actually I find it disgusting that people would rather live by men's words which will vanish, instead of the Word of the Living God that will never vanish.
Heaven and earth will pass away ,but my words will never pass away.Im of the opinion that Jesus told us everything in advance in regard to his coming.
"But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Paul seems to think so when teaching on the timing of the rapture.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night
Jesus said after the tribulation he would come, because he is coming after the GT.Jesus teaching is true.
Heaven and earth will pass away ,but my words will never pass away.Im of the opinion that Jesus told us everything in advance in regard to his coming.
"But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Paul seems to think so when teaching on the timing of the rapture.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night
Jesus said after the tribulation he would come, because he is coming after the GT.Jesus teaching is true.
(kriss;19003)
The Church Will See The Man Of SinPaul affirms that the gathering of the saints will occur in the Day of the Lord, but not until after the man of lawlessness appears and the great Apostasy takes place, with the lawless one being slain in that Day. Persecution not accompanied by these other signs cannot point to the imminent arrival of the Day when Christ returns.Paul is teaching that members of the Church will see these events, thus bringing the Church through the Tribulation and into the Day of the Lord.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,In his first chapter, Paul described the destruction of the unbeliever and the gathering of the saints in the Day of the Lord. Now he entreats the brothers to listen to some facts about this future gathering of saints.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.Very clearly, Paul states that the Day of the Lord has not come; the Thessalonians are being deceived because they listened to another spirit, and to verbal and written communication that contradicted what he'd told them.We saw in 1 Thessalonians that the saints will be caught up (chapter 4) when the Day of the Lord arrives after the "times and seasons" followed immediately by the destructive wrath that will fall suddenly on the unbelievers (chapter 5). Then in chapter 1 of this second letter, we learned that the saints will be glorified and that God's retribution will fall on unbelievers and WHEN Jesus is revealed from heaven. But do the events of chapter 1 follow after the "times and seasons"? In this chapter, we'll see that since the gathering of the saints AND the almost simultaneous destruction of the unbelievers can occur only once, the reign of the lawless one must be the period called the "times and seasons." The posttribulational coming of Christ follows the "times and seasons" in book one; that same coming follows the reign of the lawless one in book two.In this verse, Paul is preparing to re-describe the "times and seasons" to the Thessalonians. He wants them to really understand the signs that will introduce the Day of the Lord. When all these signs eventually appear, the Church will know that the Lord's coming and the time of their being gathered to Him is near. It is not yet time for that event, so members should try to regain their composure. The Day of the Lord has not arrived.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Here Paul begins to relate again the characteristics of the period that will precede the Day of the Lord. He simply states that the Day of the Lord will not come before the apostasy or the revelation of the man of sin, which are definitely part of the Tribulation period. Paul says it is a deception to assert that the Day arrives before this.Because the gathering of the saints is part of the Day of the Lord, we could substitute the phrase "our gathering together unto him" for the word "day" in verse 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that [the time of our gathering together unto him] has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction (2 Thess. 2).STUDY VERSE: 2:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.It is generally agreed that the man of lawlessness enters the temple and declares himself to be God half way through the Tribulation. Thus, the Church also must be at least half way through those seven years in order to see this occur. If Paul knew that the Church would not see the Day of the Lord arrive because of a previous rapture, he should have told the Thessalonians not to worry about any of this apostasy and man of lawlessness business - they wouldn't be present anyway.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?Apparently, Paul had taught the Church at Thessalonica at length. In 1 Thessalonians 5:1, he stated that he had told them about a characteristic period of time to come. Here again, he indicates that he had previously spoken to them of the same period (the Tribulation), the time of the lawless one's persecutions that precedes the changing of the saints. In his first letter, Paul said, "You'll recognize the approach of the Day of the Lord because of the characteristics of what I call the times and seasons." Now in his second letter he gets down to particulars: "You'll recognize the approach of the Day of the Lord because of the onset of the apostasy and the appearance of the man of lawlessness." "These things" (v. 5) are, therefore, a part of the "times and seasons" of 1 Thessalonians.After all he had already taught the Church, Paul is almost begging to know how they could think the Day of the Lord had arrived. All he had told them about had not yet occurred, especially the apostasy and the reign of the lawless one. Paul reminds them that they must see these events before anticipating the Lord's return.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.The lawless one will be revealed at a particular time. There have been many debates about who, or what, the restrainer is, some conclude it is Michael. But one thing is sure: when the man of sin comes on the scene the believing Church will know how to avoid him. STUDY VERSE: 2:2:7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.The mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) was already at work in Paul's time, and it is certainly working in our own generation. This force was responsible for the false teaching the Thessalonians believed, and it is also responsible for the current teaching concerning a pretribulation rapture.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:The Church will see the lawless one revealed, and live through his reign of lawlessness. We will also see that reign perish when Jesus returns and slays the lawless one with the breath of His mouth. This will occur at the end of the age when Jesus brings all persecution of the saints to an end and gives them rest. There is no doubt the Church will go through the Tribulation.
Bless you Kriss,Well thank God someone who sees the light of what Christ is teaching in revelation 20 which shows that the truth is Christians will go through the time of tribulation.The Lord has been given me the message about the last times for years falling on deaf ears and last night when I was talking to him because I did not feel like posting when people are not listening, I come here and find this.
ray3:In 2 thessalonians 2 :6 It is the fact that the time is not yet come for the beast and false prophet at the time of Paul. So he could not come till the time was right. This held him back from coming.In Revelation 20:1-4, It shows that in verse 4 the confirmation of what you have said, that believers are going through the time of tribulation.In 1 Thessalonians 4:15. This shows the living shall not go ahead of the dead so when the saints are taken to the Lord people of the earth will disappear as this is the times that after the beast and false prophet are dealt with and in the lake of fire. Christ reigns for a thousand years. With the saints whilst men and women go on marrying, eating, drinking right up to the last day.We see that the Final battle comes when satan released after the 1,000 year reign. Revelation 20:7-10.Here we see the Holy City and the camp of Gods people surrounded by Satan and his army and God himself without the aid of man destroys them.Gog and Magog as Daniel mentions is also at this point involved.So a rapture is expected when Jesus raises the dead saints and the living caught up in the air with him. But they reign a thousand years before Satan dealt with. In the word of God the verses 11 onward shows the second raising and the judgement taking place and death is the last to be dealt with.Thanks again Kriss. Glory to God in heaven and peace to his people on earth.Faithful.
The Church Will See The Man Of SinPaul affirms that the gathering of the saints will occur in the Day of the Lord, but not until after the man of lawlessness appears and the great Apostasy takes place, with the lawless one being slain in that Day. Persecution not accompanied by these other signs cannot point to the imminent arrival of the Day when Christ returns.Paul is teaching that members of the Church will see these events, thus bringing the Church through the Tribulation and into the Day of the Lord.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,In his first chapter, Paul described the destruction of the unbeliever and the gathering of the saints in the Day of the Lord. Now he entreats the brothers to listen to some facts about this future gathering of saints.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.Very clearly, Paul states that the Day of the Lord has not come; the Thessalonians are being deceived because they listened to another spirit, and to verbal and written communication that contradicted what he'd told them.We saw in 1 Thessalonians that the saints will be caught up (chapter 4) when the Day of the Lord arrives after the "times and seasons" followed immediately by the destructive wrath that will fall suddenly on the unbelievers (chapter 5). Then in chapter 1 of this second letter, we learned that the saints will be glorified and that God's retribution will fall on unbelievers and WHEN Jesus is revealed from heaven. But do the events of chapter 1 follow after the "times and seasons"? In this chapter, we'll see that since the gathering of the saints AND the almost simultaneous destruction of the unbelievers can occur only once, the reign of the lawless one must be the period called the "times and seasons." The posttribulational coming of Christ follows the "times and seasons" in book one; that same coming follows the reign of the lawless one in book two.In this verse, Paul is preparing to re-describe the "times and seasons" to the Thessalonians. He wants them to really understand the signs that will introduce the Day of the Lord. When all these signs eventually appear, the Church will know that the Lord's coming and the time of their being gathered to Him is near. It is not yet time for that event, so members should try to regain their composure. The Day of the Lord has not arrived.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Here Paul begins to relate again the characteristics of the period that will precede the Day of the Lord. He simply states that the Day of the Lord will not come before the apostasy or the revelation of the man of sin, which are definitely part of the Tribulation period. Paul says it is a deception to assert that the Day arrives before this.Because the gathering of the saints is part of the Day of the Lord, we could substitute the phrase "our gathering together unto him" for the word "day" in verse 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that [the time of our gathering together unto him] has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction (2 Thess. 2).STUDY VERSE: 2:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.It is generally agreed that the man of lawlessness enters the temple and declares himself to be God half way through the Tribulation. Thus, the Church also must be at least half way through those seven years in order to see this occur. If Paul knew that the Church would not see the Day of the Lord arrive because of a previous rapture, he should have told the Thessalonians not to worry about any of this apostasy and man of lawlessness business - they wouldn't be present anyway.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?Apparently, Paul had taught the Church at Thessalonica at length. In 1 Thessalonians 5:1, he stated that he had told them about a characteristic period of time to come. Here again, he indicates that he had previously spoken to them of the same period (the Tribulation), the time of the lawless one's persecutions that precedes the changing of the saints. In his first letter, Paul said, "You'll recognize the approach of the Day of the Lord because of the characteristics of what I call the times and seasons." Now in his second letter he gets down to particulars: "You'll recognize the approach of the Day of the Lord because of the onset of the apostasy and the appearance of the man of lawlessness." "These things" (v. 5) are, therefore, a part of the "times and seasons" of 1 Thessalonians.After all he had already taught the Church, Paul is almost begging to know how they could think the Day of the Lord had arrived. All he had told them about had not yet occurred, especially the apostasy and the reign of the lawless one. Paul reminds them that they must see these events before anticipating the Lord's return.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.The lawless one will be revealed at a particular time. There have been many debates about who, or what, the restrainer is, some conclude it is Michael. But one thing is sure: when the man of sin comes on the scene the believing Church will know how to avoid him. STUDY VERSE: 2:2:7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.The mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) was already at work in Paul's time, and it is certainly working in our own generation. This force was responsible for the false teaching the Thessalonians believed, and it is also responsible for the current teaching concerning a pretribulation rapture.STUDY VERSE: 2:2:8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:The Church will see the lawless one revealed, and live through his reign of lawlessness. We will also see that reign perish when Jesus returns and slays the lawless one with the breath of His mouth. This will occur at the end of the age when Jesus brings all persecution of the saints to an end and gives them rest. There is no doubt the Church will go through the Tribulation.
Bless you Kriss,Well thank God someone who sees the light of what Christ is teaching in revelation 20 which shows that the truth is Christians will go through the time of tribulation.The Lord has been given me the message about the last times for years falling on deaf ears and last night when I was talking to him because I did not feel like posting when people are not listening, I come here and find this.
ray3:In 2 thessalonians 2 :6 It is the fact that the time is not yet come for the beast and false prophet at the time of Paul. So he could not come till the time was right. This held him back from coming.In Revelation 20:1-4, It shows that in verse 4 the confirmation of what you have said, that believers are going through the time of tribulation.In 1 Thessalonians 4:15. This shows the living shall not go ahead of the dead so when the saints are taken to the Lord people of the earth will disappear as this is the times that after the beast and false prophet are dealt with and in the lake of fire. Christ reigns for a thousand years. With the saints whilst men and women go on marrying, eating, drinking right up to the last day.We see that the Final battle comes when satan released after the 1,000 year reign. Revelation 20:7-10.Here we see the Holy City and the camp of Gods people surrounded by Satan and his army and God himself without the aid of man destroys them.Gog and Magog as Daniel mentions is also at this point involved.So a rapture is expected when Jesus raises the dead saints and the living caught up in the air with him. But they reign a thousand years before Satan dealt with. In the word of God the verses 11 onward shows the second raising and the judgement taking place and death is the last to be dealt with.Thanks again Kriss. Glory to God in heaven and peace to his people on earth.Faithful.Similar threads
