3 Women under the Cross

[bbyrd009]

"
The story of Jesus versus Rome is the perennial story of personal autonomy versus fascism. It's never simply a story of the "good guys" versus the "bad guys" because in physical reality natural law reigns rather than some cosmic battle. Hence "all things work together for good to them that love God" (Romans 8:28), and the huffin' and puffin' of the big bad wolf only makes the brick house stronger (same story). Whatever proverbial antagonist is mentioned in the gospels, it's always for the positive effect that this person's negative actions had on Jesus' ultimate resurrection as consciously acknowledged Lord.

The crucifixion of Jesus centers on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and according to Josephus, when the army had "no more people to slay or plunder", Titus ordered the city razed to the ground with the exception of three massive royal towers, "in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which Roman valor had subdued" (JW.7.1).

These towers had been built by Herod the Great, were named Phasaelus, after Herod's brother, Hippicus, after a fallen general and friend, and Mariamne, after Herod's wife. Herod's wife Mariamne and her sons were the last of the Hasmoneans and Herod had hoped that his marriage to the last Jewish princess would abate the hatred that the Jewish elite bore for him. He was also deeply in love with her, but she hated him more than he loved her and she and her sons and in effect the Hasmonean dynasty ended up terminated because of it.

When the authors of the New Testament came up with a personage Mary Magdalene — that is: Mary of the Tower, from מגדל (migdal), meaning tower — and placed her unanimously under the cross, nobody in the original audience would have missed the pun:

• Among whom were Mary Magdalene, and "Mary of-James-Mikron-and-of-Joses-the-mother", and Salome (Mark 15:40).
• Among them was Mary Magdalene, and "Mary of James and of Joseph the mother", and the mother of the sons of Zebedee (Matthew 27:56).
• They were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary of James (Luke 24:10).
• Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister; Mary of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene (John 19:25).

Over the centuries, many of the best and brightest have tried to figure out which women exactly were present at the crucifixion, because like the "pages and pages of data" in Carl Sagan's Contact, the pointers simply don't line up — that is to say: to an observer who expects a linear narrative. To those who expect "efficiency functioning on multiple levels" the story opens up like a fractal, hinging on the mysteriously multi-facetted character of James..." http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Mary.html#.W3nvOehKiUm

 

[Helen]

That was interesting @bbyrd009
I have never come across any of the before. :)

 

[bbyrd009]

That was interesting @bbyrd009
I have never come across any of the before. :)

gets even better in the next section imo. Where did the guy learn all this? And of course we have instant highlight/search now, we can highlight any dubious or unbelievable snips and research further; i have yet to catch him out.

 

[zipzaddle]

Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister; Mary of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene (John 19:25)

There is four in your post.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is four in your post.

i think he must have meant "3 Marys" prolly, he is exploring Mary (and James) as symbols i think

 

[Windmill Charge]

he story of Jesus versus Rome is the perennial story of personal autonomy versus fascism

Sorry totaly incorrect. Jesus was not confronting Rome or fascism, but dealing with our sin.
Rome was merely an instrument.

The crucifixion of Jesus centers on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD,

The crucifixtion had nothing to do with the seige and collapse of Jerusalem. This happened some forty years later and is an indicator of just how early the NT was written in that there is no mention of this event, which was predicted by Jesus.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sorry totaly incorrect. Jesus was not confronting Rome or fascism, but dealing with our sin.
Rome was merely an instrument.



The crucifixtion had nothing to do with the seige and collapse of Jerusalem. This happened some forty years later and is an indicator of just how early the NT was written in that there is no mention of this event, which was predicted by Jesus.

hmm, strikes me that if it was predicted by Jesus then there must have been a mention? But i wonder if you would flesh out your argument a bit more, "Rome was merely an instrument" agrees with the author near as i can tell, and "don't you know that it is better that one man die for all the people, than that the whole nation perish?" suggests to me that the crucifixion maybe did have some connection to the collapse?

Could you maybe restate your objection, the part you specifically object to? ty

 

[Windmill Charge]

hmm, strikes me that if it was predicted by Jesus then there must have been a mention? But i wonder if you would flesh out your argument a bit more, "Rome was merely an instrument" agrees with the author near as i can tell, and "don't you know that it is better that one man die for all the people, than that the whole nation perish?" suggests to me that the crucifixion maybe did have some connection to the collapse?

Could you maybe restate your objection, the part you specifically object to? ty

If Jesus was confronting Rome he would have raised an army and fourght. As it was Rome was the governing authority in Israel who carried out his exceution.
Rome's empire, road network, peace and language enabled Christians to travel and spread Christianity.

Jesus died around ad 35. Jerusalem was besieged in ad70 there is nothing to link the two events other than prophercy.

 

[brakelite]

Jesus died around ad 35. Jerusalem was besieged in ad70 there is nothing to link the two events other than prophercy.

KJV Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[bbyrd009]

If Jesus was confronting Rome he would have raised an army and fourght. As it was Rome was the governing authority in Israel who carried out his exceution.
Rome's empire, road network, peace and language enabled Christians to travel and spread Christianity.

Jesus died around ad 35. Jerusalem was besieged in ad70 there is nothing to link the two events other than prophercy.

tag for later

better perspectives for all of these imo, but maybe not, we'll see

 

[Windmill Charge]

KJV Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Are you agreeing with what I've posted or arguing?

 

[brakelite]

Are you agreeing with what I've posted or arguing?

Absolutely agreeing. That said, we shouldn't downplay the importance of prophecy in the connection mentioned. To say that only, in prophecy, as if to suggest perhaps that is insufficient evidence, to make the connection between Calvary and the destruction of Jerusalem, if I am understanding you correctly, would be dangerous, for Peter magnified prophecy above even a personal appearance.
2Peter 1:19
‭We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:‭
Therefore that prophecy makes the connection, is all we need as affirmation of the fact.

 

[bbyrd009]

"
The Bethanian Triad

In stead of a broken symmetry, the evolving gospel shows lines of congruency that run down the flanks of the narrative like stripes on a zebra. The primer is the notion that the English name James is actually the Greek name Jacobos, which is the Greek version of the Hebrew name Jacob, which was the original name of Israel. Jacob had a brother named Esau, from whom came the Edomites or Idumeans and from whom came the family of Herod the Great, the Roman client king of Judea.

This king Herod died in 4 BC and the rule over Judea passed over to the Romans in 6 AD, which is precisely the time span in which Jesus was born. It's not often emphasized but Jesus wasn't born in a year but in the twelve years between at least two years before the death of Herod in 4 BC (Matthew 2:16) and the census of Quirinius in 6 AD (Luke 2:2). Modern readers might find this somewhat confusing but nobody in the first century AD would have missed or misunderstood this.

Mark wrote after Paul but before the nativity cycle had been developed (by Matthew and Luke). Mark's coming of the Christ was partly out of Nazareth (1:9) and partly a natural continuation of the ministry of John the Baptist, who himself simply "appeared in the wilderness" (1:4) and after whom simply "the One would come" (1:7). Mark's Bethany was not yet the home of Mary, Martha and Lazarus but the place from whence the disciples retrieved the foal upon which Jesus would enter Jerusalem (11:1) and to which he retreated afterward (11:11), where Simon the Leper lived and a still unnamed woman anointed Jesus' feet (14:3; see Romans 10:15-16).

What later was elaborated in the familiar triad of Mary, Martha and Lazarus of Bethany describes the focal point of the three main impetuses that drove society..." The amazing name Mary: meaning and etymology

 

[bbyrd009]

"
The mysterious third lady under the cross

When Herod Agrippa II interrogated Paul, the latter praised the king for his knowledge of the Scriptures (Acts 26:26) and the former quipped that he might become a Christian (26:28 — the joke is that back then the word Christian still denoted someone rooting for a Jewish king on a Jewish throne; Agrippa was the great-grandson of the legendary Idumean-and-thus-not-Jewish Herod the Great who sat on a Roman throne). But ultimately, Agrippa and his court ruled that Paul hadn't done "anything worthy of death or imprisonment" (26:31), while according to Roman law he had in fact committed multiple acts of high treason. High treason, or treason against the state, was one of a very few crimes for which Roman citizens could be executed, and this by beheading; hence the later legend..." ibid

everything we know about Scripture is wrong lol

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I know the exact three letter Afrikaans word for the bird's theory. . .

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Peter magnified prophecy above even a personal appearance.
2Peter 1:19
‭We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:‭
Therefore that prophecy makes the connection, is all we need as affirmation of the fact.

Thank you brakelite; I never saw this Scripture like now for encouragement and perseverance.

 

[bbyrd009]

and the day star arise in your hearts

me neither. good one!

 

[bbyrd009]

I know the exact three letter Afrikaans word for the bird's theory. . .

ah, prolly not enough SAs in here for that to be very relevant? Just say it in English imo

 

[Enoch111]

Over the centuries, many of the best and brightest have tried to figure out which women exactly were present at the crucifixion...

That would be pure guesswork, since all the women who were present are not mentioned, and Christ had a large group of female disciples, including the "Marys":

And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:... There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome...

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

ah, prolly not enough SAs in here for that to be very relevant? Just say it in English imo

In view of the reality humans run the show, I am too afraid to, to be honest.