In reference to Betchevy's Jeremiah Post. This post also contains my terms for continuing in this conversation. In order to get the full understanding of this passage, one ought to, as with the 2Peter passage, begin at the least, at the start of the chapter so as to know to whom this address is meant for and of what it is speaking. Betchevy, I do not know where you, or anyone else here, is deriving such conclusions that there was a prior earth age. There is no clear teaching within scripture regarding the such, nor is there to be found, as is supposed, in the original languages of the Scriptures. But I shall play this game and see where it will lead us. Jeremiah 4:1-21 has much to say regarding the passage that you bring up, and I believe that it will help us to understand what is being said in the verses that you have chosen to quote as support for a pre-Adamic race of men and angels. To whom is this passage addressed? We find the answer in Jeremiah 4:1 – If you will return, O Israel,” says the LORD, “Return to Me; and if you will put away your abominations out of My sight, Then you shall not be moved…” Judah was steeped into idol worship, and God is about to send, just as He did with the Northern tribes of Israel through Assyria, Judah into captivity through Babylon. Yet here we see a merciful God giving them yet another chance to repent and turn back to Him. There is a call to the worship of the true God in verse 3, “For thus says the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem: Break up your fallow (untilled) ground, and do not sow among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your hearts.” The call to breaking up the untilled ground is a call to being productive in their spiritual lives where the spiritual weeds have grown and overtaken their hearts, turning them from the true God to the idols they were now worshipping. The result of not listening? Verse 4 “…Let My fury come forth like fire, and burn so that no one can quench it., because of the evil of your doings.” Of course, Judah will not repent before it is too late, and there will be an invasion, and their cities will be laid to waste because of the anger of God towards their sinfulness: 4:7-8, “The lion has come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of nations is on his way. He has gone forth from his place to make your land desolate. Your cities will be laid waste without inhabitant. For this, clothe yourself with sackcloth, and lament and wail. For the fierce anger of the Lord has not turned back from us.” Jeremiah references the false prophets in verse 10: “Then I said, ‘Ah, Lord God! Surely you have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, “You shall have peace,” Whereas the sword reaches to the heart…’” Chapter 5:12 gives explanation of this supposed deception from God (which it is not from God, but from the false prophets) “They have lied about the LORD, and said, ‘It is not He. [Referring to the prophecy of destruction.] Neither will evil come upon us, nor shall we see sword or famine. And the prophets become wind, for the word is not in them. Thus shall it be done to them…’”Anything so far about a missing earth age? Not that I see… let’s continue… Verses 11-13 continue to tell of the pending judgment, the coming invasion. Verse 14 is a plea for repentance: “O Jerusalem, wash your heart from wickedness, that you may be saved. How long shall your evil thoughts lodge within you?”Verse 15-18, again, of the inevitable judgment that is going to come. Jeremiah laments for the coming judgment and for the destruction of his people:
O my soul, my soul! I am pained in my very heart! My heart makes a noise within me; I cannot hold my peace, because you have heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. Destruction upon destruction is cried, for the whole land is plundered. Suddenly my tents are plundered, and my curtains in a moment. How long will I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
Jeremiah laments for the coming destruction and he gives the reason for the coming destruction of his people.
For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, and they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
I fail to see the point that you are trying to make here, Betchevy. Why do you interject your phrase: “You had better look back at the first Earth Age. Satan rebelled and I destroyed the entire earth age God is reminding us that His people have been foolish, and always listened to men, and their foolish traditions. They prefer not to listen to God's Word, but the foolish doctrines of men's traditions.”? No where in context here do we see that God is telling his people to look back to a previous earth age. No where is such taught in scripture. But, I suppose that you borrow the such from the next verse…
I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; and the heavens they had no light.
This is
not referring back to creation. Nothing in the context would lend to the such. Although Jeremiah is borrowing the language, he is referring specifically to the coming destruction that God is bringing. “Jeremiah may be borrowing the language, but the description in its context is not of creation in Genesis 1:2, but judgment on the land of Israel and its cities (v.20). The invaders left it desolate of the previous form and void of inhabitants due to slaying and flight (v.25). The heavens gave no light, possibly due to smoke from the fires that were destroying cities. (vv. 7,20).” (Macarthur Study Bible, p. 1068)Let’s continue on here: Verses 24-26 tells of the results of the judgment of the Lord upon His people:1. The men fled or were destroyed2. The natural animals and vegetation fled or were destroyed. 3. All of the cities were destroyedA once fruitful land became desolate, the reason? V. 26: At the presence of the LORD, By His fierce anger.There is not mention here, Betchevy, of a pre-earth-age that God is wanting to make His people mindful of as a warning that He will bring about this judgment. The Tohu va Bohu that you mention has a variety of meanings that greatly depend, as any word, no matter what the language, upon the context. I will show the definition for each one, Tohu and Bohu. Tohu: The word is derived from a root word which means to lie waste. Depending upon the context, the word can mean: Formlessness, Confusion, Unreality, Emptiness. How do we determine which definition best fits the passage? We have to look at the context surrounding it. Genesis 1:1,2 reads: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without from (tohu) and void (bohu); and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Does God create something that is in confusion? We read that God is not the author of confusion 1 Corinthians 14:33, so this cannot be the case. Does God give any reason within the whole context of Genesis chapter 1 to believe that there is any pre-Adamic race which is the cause of the supposed confusion here? No. There is no support for the such. Does God give any reason to believe that billions of years have passed between 1:1 and 1:2? Not anywhere that I have seen in all of Scripture. What about Unreality? I doubt that I should gain any opposing arguments against this, but I will make a point here. Was the creation of the world a real event, or was it something that was “unreality”? Of course we all know that the such was a real event. This goes to show that this word can have a meaning, a definition that does not fit in the context here. Thus, is it possible that the definition you give it here could be the wrong one? It is very possible. In fact, I say it is so. What about Emptiness or formlessness? I would say that either one of these will cleanly and rightly fit the context. God had not yet created any life that could inhabit the earth, and thus we could say that it was empty. God had not made any of the lands appear, no mountains, trees, no distinctive shape, thus we could say that it was formless. Both clearly fit the context, and neither offer for a pre-Adamic race of angels and men. You would have to derive such a conclusions elsewhere, you cannot get it within these first two verses of Scripture, for there is nothing in between verse one and two to lend that there was such a passage of time as supposed, no “And Thens” no “And after a period of times”. This a deduction, and eisegtical conclusion that has no support in all of scripture. What of Bohu?: The Strongs defines Bohu in the following way: It is from the root meaning to be empty. It can mean Emptiness, Void, or Waste. Emptiness would best fit the context, but what of Void? That is the popular suggestion of most translators. Void, according to m-w.com: a) Not occupied
Not inhabited C) Containing nothing D) Being without something specified E) Vain, Useless F) Of No Legal Force or Effect (void contract)Which definition should we suppose for the word Void, according to the context? We know that nothing has been created up to this point in way of life-forms. Might I suggest that the following be used to define Void used by the translators in this verse: A, B, C, D. God does not create something that is useless, so that cannot be the correct definition here, and we know that God did in fact put this ball of water to use, and No Legal binding… that definition does not make sense here in this context. And as seen with Tohu, there are definitions that do not fit a word in a particular context. So, might I suggest that from this brief study of these two words that Genesis 1:2 might be read in the following way: The earth was formless and uninhabited. This does not lend to a supposed chaotic state, and it certainly lends nothing to a pre-adamic race, while it does stay true to the Word of God in its proper context. Betchevy, you go on to say, of Jeremiah 4:23:
God is telling us here exactly what He did to the earth at one time. This was in the first earth age. The earth spoken of here, is the "erets" as given in the Hebrew text. In Strong's Hebrew dictionary # 776.
And you suppose to support it with your following statements, which for the sake of time and space, I will not bother quoting. God is not telling what He has done at one time, but telling what He is going to do with the nation of Judah and the coming invasion. (sigh) I might say that this is a good place to learn how not to study the Bible. You go on to say:
God continues through Jeremiah to speak of the end of this earth age... Our Nebuhannezar is just over the hill and again God will scourge the earth... He will rid it of the rudiments, the evil.
Using Jeremiah 4:28 as your proof text. But God has not switched from speaking of the coming invasion of Judah to the end times! God is still very much talking about the destruction that was coming for that time. Read the rest of the chapter: Jeremiah 4:29-31:The whole city shall flee from the noise of the horsemen and bowmen. (What horsemen and bowmen? In context, it is speaking of the men of the Babylonian army.) They shall go into thickets and climb up on the rocks. Every city shall be forsaken. And not a man shall dwell in it. And when you are plundered (God is speaking to a specific group of people, but whom? Us? No… Judah.) what will you do? Though you clothe yourself with crimson, though you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold, though you enlarge your eyes with paint, in vain you will make yourself fair; you lovers will despise you; they will seek your life. (God is making reference to Judah playing the harlot among the nations, those who once played with her will now hate her and destroy her.) For I have heard a voice as of a woman in labor, the anguish as of her who brings forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion bewailing herself (could this be speaking of Judah?!) She spreads her hands, saying, ‘Woe is me now, for my soul is weary because of my murderers!’This is specifically talking about the event of the Babylonian captivity, not about the end times. This concludes my statement to Bechevy concerning her post on Jeremiah.
Posted by TheSuperJag, April 25, 2007, 11:45AM As a babe in Christ, I would prefer if you keep me out of this, since I can only know what I only know...I took their persective (conversation or whatever)(lack of better words) and put that as an "what if" in the shoutbox...To be honest with thee, we all (us that was on the shoutbox) received Christ in our hearts, but all at different time. Before then, Our comfort zone is of this world. If ye think about it, since the Lord is perfect, did not lack...etc... our flesh is of this world. But our soul, does not need it but only our God. Not many will take their time for finding the truth. However, things do get very deep. We can't just shove the Word of God into our throat, WE must take our time. ONE step at a time. Not in a whole rush thingy. The truth does hurt, because our flesh is comfortable with lies...
If you wish to remain out of this, TheSuperJag, then by all means do. I do not believe that I am shoving the Word of God into anyone’s throat, and I do believe that this issue is one worth addressing. If the world is indeed millions of years old, as the majority here seem to claim, then that means that when God said that everything was “indeed very good”, then He was saying that those who rebelled in their spiritual bodies, and who were in sin against God were very good to Him, He was saying that the millions of bones that lay all over the earth at that point from the supposed destruction of the previous earth-age was very good. God is calling sin and death good. Look at the verse, He says that EVERYTHING is very good. Genesis 1:31 “Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.” And this was said on the sixth day, as the verse continues: “So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”My conclusion from this is that at this point, Satan had not yet rebelled. There is no death. There is no sin. Everything that God had made is very good.
Made by Kriss April 25, 2007 2:21PMHow can we show when you refuse to read what we give you I gave you a link to nephilim from Bulinger (a scholar) it is an exact copy of the appendix in the companion Bible have you read it?its one page. We have explained language for example in my mark study (not the name marK) I show where the English word mark(as in spot) the hebrew/greek actually uses 16 different words all translated to English as the word mark. Example:Ruth 3:4And it shall be, when he lieth down, that thou shalt mark the place where he shall lie, and thou shalt go in, and uncover his feet, and lay thee down; and he will tell thee what thou shalt doStrongs # 03045 yada` {yaw-dah'} a root word1) to know a) to know, learn to know
to perceive c) to perceive and see, find out and discern d) to discriminate, distinguish e) to know by experience f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess g) to consider 2) to know, be acquainted with 3) to know (a person carnally) 4) to know how, be skilful in You can plainly see that meaning of mark here in the original language has nothing to do with making a spot(place)Is it necessary to know this to get the jest of the story No. but it paints a much clearer picture here if we understand she was to be wise,skillful maybe even knew him in carnal or intimate way.Now if I had said to you the bible say Ruth may have slept with him you would argue it does not say that in my Bible but it does say that in the Hebrew so you see how you can gain details by knowing language. It expands upon a subject. It teaches you the lengths Ruth was willing to go.Paints a bigger picture if you will.This is why language can be important. The bible interprets itself you.Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Is God not interpreting for us in the above verse? Does that mean every time he says stars it means angles? To know this you have to go find the original word used here for stars. Then if you find all the places that word was used then you know which times he met angles and which times he just met stars. As I said to just see the text you have and say God just said this is to limit God. And you are mistaken all bible scholars know this. They just don't teach it.
I believe that I have addressed the issue of Tohu and Bohu thoroughly in my response to Jeremiah 4:22-28 above. Kriss, I simply do not have time to debate other authors and extra-biblical material. My contention here is that the WORD OF GOD does not teach a pre-adamic age in which the angels and men rebelled against God. The authors you handed me must go from the scriptures to support their claims, or their claims are not legitimate. I am not discussing this with them, though. I am discussing this with you, and I ask that you do one thing: Use the word of God, otherwise, you will have my leave, and I shall not debate this anymore. The word of God, not nephilim from Bulinger, is my final authority. If the Word of God teaches a pre-adamic age, then I shall whole-heartedly embrace it. All of the other posts appear to be answered in these three posts that I have made. If there is one that you want to draw my attention to specifically, let me know and I shall address that one as well. I fear to go on as I am would lead to repetition, and a serious case of boredom by any who are following along here. Doulos i ChristosWriter