70th Week and Day of the Lord are separate events.

[covenantee]

I agree with part of what you are saying, but I think you are blending two different levels of destruction that Daniel keeps distinct.
Yes, there was a spiritual condition before the physical destruction. Daniel’s prayer in chapter 9 shows that Jerusalem’s earlier fall came after covenant disobedience. In the same way, by the time of Christ, the nation’s leadership had become spiritually desolate before the physical destruction of AD 70. I do not disagree with that principle.

But Daniel 9:26 is still speaking of a real physical destruction of the city and sanctuary: “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” The Jews did not physically destroy the city and temple in AD 70. Rome did.

So while the Jews were covenantally responsible for rejecting Messiah, the actual destroying “people” in verse 26 were the Roman people/armies. That is why the phrase points us to a prince connected to the Roman power, not simply back to Messiah the Prince in verse 25.

Also, the text does not say “His people,” as though it means Messiah’s people. It says “the people of the prince who is to come.” The people are identified by their connection to that coming prince, and historically the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary were Roman.

And when Jesus refers to Daniel’s abomination of desolation, He is not merely warning about old Babylonian history. He is pointing forward to the consequence of rejecting Him. The same pattern repeats: spiritual desolation first, physical destruction afterward. But that still does not make the Roman destroyers into the Jews, nor does it require the coming prince of verse 26 to be Messiah the Prince of verse 25.

History records that the Jews themselves, e.g. the Zealots, were highly complicit in the destruction of Jerusalem.

Why do you not believe that Messiah could use unbelieving Romans and Jews as His people, i.e. agents and instruments, to accomplish His purposes of judgment and destruction upon the apostate nation? He certainly did at least twice in the OT.

 

[CTK]

The Bible does not tell us that Daniel was speaking of a real physical destruction of the city and sanctuary, you assume this through extrabiblical sources. Yes, the Jews did SPIRITUALLY destroy the city and temple by committing spiritual abominations against God. Why do you argue for the physical destruction in 70 AD? What comes next if this is what the prophet Daniel is speaking of? What are your expectations when Christ, the promised Messiah Prince shall come again?



No, the text does not point us to a prince connected to the Roman power. What the text does not say is that the prince that shall come is a lesser Prince than Messiah the Prince that has been the focus. Again, you only read Rome into the text through extrabiblical sources. Yes, the people coming who destroy the city and temple are indeed connected to the Prince that would come. They are of the same biological seeds of Abraham; Jews. Just as the Prince that would come the Messiah was born of the Jews.

Yes, Daniel is pointing forward to what shall befall his people in the future when they too reject God.

Thanks for the coversation but I have provided you with answers with scripture references to your interpretations at least twice. You are certainly entitiled to your own interpretations.

9:26.....And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

In the above verse, who are the people that will come to destroy the city in 70 AD? (Rome)
Is the destruction of the city found within these verses or, as you claim, from extrabiblical sources? (here with chapter 9)
Is the prince mentioned in the verse above coming AFTER the destruction of the city and the sanctuary? (Yes)
After the city and the sanctuary are destoyed in 70 AD, are there ANY more Jews left (very few but you know what I mean)? (No)
After the cross, Jesus returned to His Father in heaven. Can He be this "prince of the Roman people to come?" (No)
Does the little horn arise to power AFTER the city and the sanctuary are destroyed in 70 AD? (Yes)

I hope you will take another / another / another look at all of the information that has been put in front of you during the past week or so. But again, you are entitiled to your own interpretations... I have to move on. Best wishes.

 

[CTK]

History records that the Jews themselves, e.g. the Zealots, were highly complicit in the destruction of Jerusalem.

Why do you not believe that Messiah could use unbelieving Romans and Jews as His people, i.e. agents and instruments, to accomplish His purposes of judgment and destruction upon the apostate nation? He certainly did at least twice in the OT.

There is no question there was terrible in-fighting within the nation - at least 3 different factions all clawing at themselve. The nation was disintegrating. But, the one common denominator for the 3 groups was their hatred for Rome. And when the northern Jews fought, embarrassed and killed many Romans, they made a decision to send Titus and a very large army to get rid of them once and for all.

God certainly DID use the Romans for His purposes, no different than when He used Babylon to destroy the Assyrians, or the Persians to destroy the Babylonians, or the Greeks to destroy the Persians. Nothing new there..... Not sure why you brought that up - did not come from my writings.

 

[covenantee]

There is no question there was terrible in-fighting within the nation - at least 3 different factions all clawing at themselve. The nation was disintegrating. But, the one common denominator for the 3 groups was their hatred for Rome. And when the northern Jews fought, embarrassed and killed many Romans, they made a decision to send Titus and a very large army to get rid of them once and for all.

God certainly DID use the Romans for His purposes, no different than when He used Babylon to destroy the Assyrians, or the Persians to destroy the Babylonians, or the Greeks to destroy the Persians. Nothing new there..... Not sure why you brought that up - did not come from my writings.

Don't you believe that the prince in verse 26 is not Messiah?

 

[CTK]

Don't you believe that the prince in verse 26 is not Messiah?

Chiastic structure for 9:24 - 27

A — Spiritual restoration
Daniel 9:24 — sin, atonement, righteousness, prophecy, Most Holy

B — Physical restoration
Daniel 9:25a — Jerusalem restored and rebuilt​

C — True/restorative Prince
Daniel 9:25b — Messiah the Prince comes​

C′ — False/destructive prince (little horn)
Daniel 9:26 — the prince who is to come, identified by the destroying people​

B′ — Physical destruction
Daniel 9:26 — city and sanctuary destroyed​

A′ — Spiritual consequence
Daniel 9:27 — covenant confirmed, sacrifices cease, abomination/desolation follows

Why the “prince who is to come” belongs opposite Messiah the Prince

The phrase “Messiah the Prince” in verse 25 belongs to the restorative half. He is the anointed Prince who comes after the rebuilding of Jerusalem and through whom the redemptive goals of verse 24 are fulfilled. But verse 26 introduces another prince — not “Messiah the Prince,” but “the prince who is to come.” He is not introduced by anointing, restoration, righteousness, or covenant fulfillment. He is introduced through his people, and his people are identified by destruction:

“The people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

That means his identity is tied to the power responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary. Historically, that destruction came through Rome in AD 70. Therefore, the coming prince belongs to the Roman sphere and later develops in the same stream of opposition seen elsewhere in Daniel — especially the little horn power.

So the contrast is deliberate:

Messiah the Prince comes to restore.
The coming prince arises from the destroying power.

Messiah the Prince confirms the covenant and ends sacrifice by fulfillment.
The coming prince is associated with the desolating power that follows rejection.

Messiah brings the spiritual restoration of verse 24.
The coming prince belongs to the destructive consequences of verse 26.


Narrative Version

Daniel 9:24–27 is arranged around two matching movements: restoration and destruction.

The first movement is restorative. Verse 24 announces the spiritual restoration appointed for Daniel’s people and holy city: transgression will be finished, sins dealt with, iniquity reconciled, everlasting righteousness brought in, vision and prophecy sealed, and the Most Holy anointed. Verse 25 then gives the physical restoration: Jerusalem will be restored and rebuilt, even in troubled times. At the center of that restoration stands Messiah the Prince.

The second movement mirrors the first in judgment. The Messiah who comes in verse 25 is cut off in verse 26. After His rejection, the restored city and sanctuary of verse 25 are destroyed. But verse 26 also introduces another prince — the prince who is to come. This prince is not identified with Messiah the Prince. He is identified by the people who destroy the city and sanctuary. His connection is not with restoration, but with desolation.


This gives the passage a clear contrast between two princes.

Messiah the Prince is the Prince of restoration.
The prince who is to come is connected to destruction.

Messiah the Prince belongs to the fulfillment of God’s redemptive purpose.
The coming prince belongs to the power that follows in judgment after Messiah is rejected.

Messiah the Prince is revealed before the cutting off.
The coming prince is revealed after the cutting off, through the people who destroy the city and sanctuary.

This strengthens the structure. The passage is not merely contrasting restoration and destruction in general. It is contrasting the true Prince who restores with the coming prince whose people destroy.



Therefore, Daniel 9:24–27 may be read as a carefully balanced prophecy:

God restores the spiritual purpose of His people and city.
God restores Jerusalem physically.
Messiah the Prince comes.
Messiah is cut off.
The people of the coming prince destroy the city and sanctuary.
Desolation follows until the decreed end.

The city restored in verse 25 becomes the city destroyed in verse 26.
The sanctuary purpose fulfilled in verse 24 becomes the sacrificial system ended in verse 27.
The Messiah Prince of verse 25 is answered by the coming prince of verse 26.
The covenant purpose of God is fulfilled, but the rejection of that covenant brings judgment.

This makes Messiah the center of the prophecy and the dividing line of the whole structure. Everything before His rejection moves toward restoration. Everything after His rejection moves toward desolation.

 

[rwb]

Thanks for the coversation but I have provided you with answers with scripture references to your interpretations at least twice. You are certainly entitiled to your own interpretations.

9:26.....And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

In the above verse, who are the people that will come to destroy the city in 70 AD? (Rome)
Is the destruction of the city found within these verses or, as you claim, from extrabiblical sources? (here with chapter 9)
Is the prince mentioned in the verse above coming AFTER the destruction of the city and the sanctuary? (Yes)
After the city and the sanctuary are destoyed in 70 AD, are there ANY more Jews left (very few but you know what I mean)? (No)
After the cross, Jesus returned to His Father in heaven. Can He be this "prince of the Roman people to come?" (No)
Does the little horn arise to power AFTER the city and the sanctuary are destroyed in 70 AD? (Yes)

I hope you will take another / another / another look at all of the information that has been put in front of you during the past week or so. But again, you are entitiled to your own interpretations... I have to move on. Best wishes.

Thanks for the discussion, Charlie! Knowing you've published a book with your view on Daniel, I would have been exceedingly surprised if anything I've shown would have changed your mind. But it was worth the effort anyway. Blessings, rwb

 

[covenantee]

Chiastic structure for 9:24 - 27

A — Spiritual restoration
Daniel 9:24 — sin, atonement, righteousness, prophecy, Most Holy

B — Physical restoration​

Daniel 9:25a — Jerusalem restored and rebuilt​

C — True/restorative Prince​

Daniel 9:25b — Messiah the Prince comes​

C′ — False/destructive prince (little horn)​

Daniel 9:26 — the prince who is to come, identified by the destroying people​

B′ — Physical destruction​

Daniel 9:26 — city and sanctuary destroyed​

A′ — Spiritual consequence
Daniel 9:27 — covenant confirmed, sacrifices cease, abomination/desolation follows

Why the “prince who is to come” belongs opposite Messiah the Prince

The phrase “Messiah the Prince” in verse 25 belongs to the restorative half. He is the anointed Prince who comes after the rebuilding of Jerusalem and through whom the redemptive goals of verse 24 are fulfilled. But verse 26 introduces another prince — not “Messiah the Prince,” but “the prince who is to come.” He is not introduced by anointing, restoration, righteousness, or covenant fulfillment. He is introduced through his people, and his people are identified by destruction:

“The people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

That means his identity is tied to the power responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary. Historically, that destruction came through Rome in AD 70. Therefore, the coming prince belongs to the Roman sphere and later develops in the same stream of opposition seen elsewhere in Daniel — especially the little horn power.

So the contrast is deliberate:

Messiah the Prince comes to restore.
The coming prince arises from the destroying power.

Messiah the Prince confirms the covenant and ends sacrifice by fulfillment.
The coming prince is associated with the desolating power that follows rejection.

Messiah brings the spiritual restoration of verse 24.
The coming prince belongs to the destructive consequences of verse 26.


Narrative Version

Daniel 9:24–27 is arranged around two matching movements: restoration and destruction.

The first movement is restorative. Verse 24 announces the spiritual restoration appointed for Daniel’s people and holy city: transgression will be finished, sins dealt with, iniquity reconciled, everlasting righteousness brought in, vision and prophecy sealed, and the Most Holy anointed. Verse 25 then gives the physical restoration: Jerusalem will be restored and rebuilt, even in troubled times. At the center of that restoration stands Messiah the Prince.

The second movement mirrors the first in judgment. The Messiah who comes in verse 25 is cut off in verse 26. After His rejection, the restored city and sanctuary of verse 25 are destroyed. But verse 26 also introduces another prince — the prince who is to come. This prince is not identified with Messiah the Prince. He is identified by the people who destroy the city and sanctuary. His connection is not with restoration, but with desolation.


This gives the passage a clear contrast between two princes.

Messiah the Prince is the Prince of restoration.
The prince who is to come is connected to destruction.

Messiah the Prince belongs to the fulfillment of God’s redemptive purpose.
The coming prince belongs to the power that follows in judgment after Messiah is rejected.

Messiah the Prince is revealed before the cutting off.
The coming prince is revealed after the cutting off, through the people who destroy the city and sanctuary.

This strengthens the structure. The passage is not merely contrasting restoration and destruction in general. It is contrasting the true Prince who restores with the coming prince whose people destroy.



Therefore, Daniel 9:24–27 may be read as a carefully balanced prophecy:

God restores the spiritual purpose of His people and city.
God restores Jerusalem physically.
Messiah the Prince comes.
Messiah is cut off.
The people of the coming prince destroy the city and sanctuary.
Desolation follows until the decreed end.

The city restored in verse 25 becomes the city destroyed in verse 26.
The sanctuary purpose fulfilled in verse 24 becomes the sacrificial system ended in verse 27.
The Messiah Prince of verse 25 is answered by the coming prince of verse 26.
The covenant purpose of God is fulfilled, but the rejection of that covenant brings judgment.

This makes Messiah the center of the prophecy and the dividing line of the whole structure. Everything before His rejection moves toward restoration. Everything after His rejection moves toward desolation.

We've seen Tertullian identify Him as Messiah.

 

[CTK]

We've seen Tertullian identify Him as Messiah.

If I understand your comment.. I think you are saying that Tertullian believed the "prince who is to come" is the Messiah? Well, if you read many of the church followers they were all over the place - no different than today.

 

[covenantee]

If I understand your comment.. I think you are saying that Tertullian believed the "prince who is to come" is the Messiah? Well, if you read many of the church followers they were all over the place - no different than today.

Who was the first after him to disagree with him?

 

[CTK]

Who was the first after him to disagree with him?

I would ask that you might try and interpret ALL the information I provided you... I can assure you that Tertullian or anyone up to today has NOT torn apart these 4 verses AND they agree with the rest of the prophetic verses both before and after chapter 9. But, you are certainly entitles to have your own thoughts. Best wishes.