7th seal / 7th trumpet / 7th bowl

[ATP]

Question For All:

Do you believe the flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and earthquake occur at the same time or three different times in end times chronology. I did notice that there is no hailstorm during the 7th seal and 7th bowl, and the earthquake is most intense at the 7th bowl. What do you think...

Rev 4:5 NIV From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God.

7TH SEAL - Rev 8:5 NIV Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

7TH TRUMPET - Rev 11:19 NIV Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

7TH BOWL - Rev 16:18 NIV Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

Rev 19:6 NIV Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

 

[lforrest]

Not sure,

Revelation is what John saw, so try to imagine what John was seeing from his words. I imagine they occurred in rapid succession.

19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

 

[keras]

They are all different events, written differently and placed in the sequence of their completion. It all awaits future fulfillment.
Rev 8:1 - the Seventh Seal is just a time gap of a half hour in heaven, that calculates out to 'about' 20 years of earth time.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Question For All:

Do you believe the flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and earthquake occur at the same time or three different times in end times chronology. I did notice that there is no hailstorm during the 7th seal and 7th bowl, and the earthquake is most intense at the 7th bowl. What do you think...

Rev 4:5 NIV From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God.

7TH SEAL - Rev 8:5 NIV Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

7TH TRUMPET - Rev 11:19 NIV Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

7TH BOWL - Rev 16:18 NIV Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

Rev 19:6 NIV Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

God does punctuate the perfect (7) conclusion of His Plan doesn't He?

However, you expressed before the sequential order of Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls. I would agree with that assessment. Running the Seal, Trumpets, and Bowls in parallel nullifies how they are presented: where the Trumpets call forth the desolations written on the Scroll which must be unsealed before they can sound, and the Bowls, as John wrote, come last one through seven.

It is important not to get hung up on similar wording. The Great Earthquake of the seventh Bowl is unique because nothing like it has ever occurred since man was on the earth. It will be as cataclysmic as the combined slow forces that formed the great mountain ranges when it suddenly levels them out.

 

[ATP]

They are all different events, written differently and placed in the sequence of their completion. It all awaits future fulfillment.
Rev 8:1 - the Seventh Seal is just a time gap of a half hour in heaven, that calculates out to 'about' 20 years of earth time.

Wow. Robert H. Gundry, posttrib believes they are the same event at the end of the 70th week, and Rev 7:9-17 is pushed forward to Rev 19. You disagree?

However, you expressed before the sequential order of Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls. I would agree with that assessment. Running the Seal, Trumpets, and Bowls in parallel nullifies how they are presented: where the Trumpets call forth the desolations written on the Scroll which must be unsealed before they can sound, and the Bowls, as John wrote, come last one through seven.

It is important not to get hung up on similar wording. The Great Earthquake of the seventh Bowl is unique because nothing like it has ever occurred since man was on the earth. It will be as cataclysmic as the combined slow forces that formed the great mountain ranges when it suddenly levels them out.

Well, the severe hailstorm and great earthquake sort of separates them into three different time frames. Some people believe the 7th / 7th / 7th all fall in the same hour.

 

[keras]

Wow. Robert H. Gundry, posttrib believes they are the same event at the end of the 70th week, and Rev 7:9-17 is pushed forward to Rev 19. You disagree?

I agree with Gundry that Rev 7:15-18 pertains to the time after the Return of Jesus, but not the verses before that. The whole chapter happens on earth.

The Seventh Seal IS just a time gap. Nothing more, nothing less. Saying it includes the 7 Trumpets or anything else is just surmise and is wrong.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Some people believe the 7th / 7th / 7th all fall in the same hour.

I know some people believe that like some people believe the seventh Seal takes 20 years. Look, all kinds of people can believe anything they think, and some people even think God personally told them what is going to happen and only they have the answer.

It is too bad that eschatology is the playground for kooks with their fantasies.

Now for taking a sequential approach two facts remain:

1. The Scroll is introduced with its Seals. Although it has writing within and without, it is still sealed and no one can open up the Seals except the Lamb, Jesus. With most scrolls, the seals would be attached on the outside leading edge. John remains faithful to a sequential approach, reporting the Trumpets going forth with their desolations (harkening back to Daniel 9:26 - the Scroll contains the desolations God has decreed) only when the last, seventh Seal is broken.

2. The Bowl Judgments come last. Within the Seal/Scroll chronology of chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) - John never reports what desolation comes with the seventh Trumpet. In the companion detailed account of the one 'seven' though, in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive) we are informed that the Bowl Judgments come last. To keep the language of the Bible intact therefore, you would have to conclude that before the first Bowl is poured down, both the Seals and the Trumpets must have come to pass.

So ignoring rabbi keras who has no credibility to determine what the prophets say when he maligns what they say so badly and so much, unless you have some compelling reason to overthrow the two Biblical reasons stated above, I will conclude that the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls come in sequential order as just stated, and do not act in parallel.

 

[ATP]

I will conclude that the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls come in sequential order as just stated, and do not act in parallel.

Gundry put the 4th seal and the 1st trumpet opening together, and the 4th trumpet opening with the 1st bowl. Why? I have no idea. I'm half way through the book. His perspective is interesting, but so far not convincing.

 

[keras]

I will conclude that the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls come in sequential order as just stated, and do not act in parallel.​ Quote Marcus

This I agree with and has always been my belief. Mixing them up as Gundry does is wrong and is usually done to fit in a false teaching. Which is what Marcus has promoted before; the Sixth Seal happening at the Return of Jesus. You have changed your mind. And your epithets are getting a bit weak, too.

 

[ATP]

Which is what Marcus has promoted before; the Sixth Seal happening at the Return of Jesus.

The "return of Jesus" is one parousia inside multiple events. You're still putting the "return of Jesus" inside one big event at the end of the 70th week. False.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Mixing them up as Gundry does is wrong and is usually done to fit in a false teaching. Which is what Marcus has promoted before; the Sixth Seal happening at the Return of Jesus.

You have little room to speak of mixing things up when you call a time of healing in Isaiah 30;26 as part of God's Wrath.

Now, since you mischaracterize so much of what other people say, I will say what I believe without you mixing it up.

The sixth Seal unlocks the Day of the Lord, starting with the sun/moon/star event as per Mt 24:29, which portends the Day of the Lord, yea, even heralds it.
It is when the Day of the Lord starts.
Several events happen on the Day of the Lord, the first being not Wrath. Nor is the second, or even the third: God's Wrath.

However, after a short space of time, and not 20 years, God's Wrath does come, as prophesied on the Day of the Lord with the first Trumpet supplying two aspects of that Wrath: Fire and Blood.

The time between the breaking of the sixth Seal and the sounding of the first Trumpet can be done in as little as a day and a half, figuring in the time for the precedent sun/moon/star event to act as the herald for the Day of the Lord - and which also abruptly ends the time of the Great Tribulation - out of which the Great Multitude is plucked and brought to safety, as any noble man would do for his bride, in Heaven.

 

[ATP]

The sixth Seal unlocks the Day of the Lord, starting with the sun/moon/star event as per Mt 24:29, which portends the Day of the Lord, yea, even heralds it.
It is when the Day of the Lord starts.
Several events happen on the Day of the Lord, the first being not Wrath. Nor is the second, or even the third: God's Wrath.

Yes. Even Isaiah agrees with you. The heavens will also roll up like a scroll.....

Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Isa 34:8 KJV For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

When scripture mentions the sun, moon and stars, it all pertains to the coming Day of the Lord. The opening of that special day of wrath and power. The prophets knew in their spirit to..Isa 13:10 NIV, Isa 34:4 NIV, Joel 2:30-31 NIV, Joel 3:14-15 NIV, Matt 24:29 NIV, Mark 13:24 NIV, Luke 21:25-28 NIV, Acts 2:19-20 NIV, 2 Pet 3:10 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV.

 

[keras]

The "return of Jesus" is one parousia inside multiple events. You're still putting the "return of Jesus" inside one big event at the end of the 70th week. False.

I DO NOT DO THAT.

 

[ATP]

I DO NOT DO THAT.

Sure.

 

[keras]

I have had the feeling for some time that to argue with Marcus and ATP is a waste of effort.
However I have persevered because other forum members can see the truth of the Prophetic Word presented. But now, I know from the last few posts, that you do not even read what I write properly, you seem incapable of understanding simple truths. No matter how much scripture I present, it has no effect.

Malachi 3:1 is informative.

 

[ATP]

I have had the feeling for some time that to argue with Marcus and ATP is a waste of effort.
However I have persevered because other forum members can see the truth of the Prophetic Word presented. But now, I know from the last few posts, that you do not even read what I write properly, you seem incapable of understanding simple truths. No matter how much scripture I present, it has no effect.

Malachi 3:1 is informative.

Well, the root of our beliefs are different. So our posts will be different. In order for your belief to change, the root of the problem would have to change too. The church being Israel etc...