A Common Error

[RichardBurger]

A Common Error:

It is a common error to assume that the Pauline Gospel of Grace was always in effect from the beginning of the world
.
Grace = unmerited (unearned) favor = you do not have to work for it. It is free.

If we assume, as some say, that grace was always the gospel in effect then we have to see that God was unfair when He brought about the flood, when he scattered the human race, when He choose a certain people (the Jews) to be His own. God was unfair when He imposed laws for the Jews to follow with the penalty of death if they were not followed.

After all the law was not in effect when the Jews left Egypt. It was imposed at Mt. Sinai.

It is a fact that God has given humankind different requirements down through history. The Pauline Gospel of salvation by faith in what God did on the cross (His shed blood) is without precedence in the scriptures. When you fail to see this you will always blend the Law of Moses (what Jesus and the 12 taught) with grace and destroy both of them.

It is clear that Jesus Christ, by His own words, did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" To the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all the promises that were written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8.

IMPORTANT NOTE: -- This is not to say that God did not have another purpose for Jesus' death on the cross. But that purpose was “hidden in God” and revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus by Jesus. (Eph 3:9)

 

[JohnnyB]

The jews were invited first to the Kingdom, then the Gentiles. We know this because the bible says first to the jew.
We also know this to be true because God has no favorites. Israel is all believers, there is no distinction.

With this man made doctrine you would have to disregard all of Jesus' words! Dangerous!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

You seem to forget that Jesus warned His disciples that He was going to die, and after His resurrection said to them,

Luke 24:O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

What this means is, that Peter got the gospel he preached on the day of Pentecost, from Jesus, just like Paul got some of his gospel from Jesus - and some of it from Ananias and other Christians.

You also seem to forget that Jesus was the word of God made Flesh. He Himself had spoken every prophecy about Himself to the prophets. He was not unaware of the gospel, or of how He was to become the mediator of the New Covenant.

He was not teaching the 'Old Covenant' - as you claim. Rather, He was raising the standard so high that no-one could keep the new law which was to be written on their hearts, except by the circumcision of faith. He knew this. He has spoken to Moses about this more than a thousand years earlier.

It is completely untenable to suggest that Christ Himself did not know what the gospel of the kingdom was - including that through the New Covenant, He was going to be preached to the Gentiles - as this is one of the oldest prophecies in the Bible - Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel', straight out of the mouth of God Himself long before 'Israelites' had come into being.

 

[Axehead]

Even the Apostle John knew that "grace and truth came by Jesus Christ". The following did not come from Paul, but is in harmony with what the Holy Spirit speaks through Paul.


Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh,(the Word which was in the beginning with God and was God) and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


This is from John, NOT Paul.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Axehead

 

[RichardBurger]

The scriptures, that you all say you believe, tell us that it was PAUL that was sent to the Gentles with a gospel that was HIDDEN in God and yet you all seem to be stuck with the teachings of Jesus and the 12 which were intended for the Jews, not Gentiles.

You all seem to want to disparage me because I take the words of the scriptures seriously and believe what they say. -- If it says that Paul was sent to the Gentiles I will believe he was sent to me because I am a Gentile. This does not deminish what Jesus and the 12 taught to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses because the scriptures PLAINLY tell us that Jesus was sent to the Jews ONLY. -- No where do we see in the 4 gospels and the first few chapters of Acts do we see that Jesus and the12 taught that men are no longer condemned by the Law of Moses but you all just can't seem to get the fact that those in Christ are dead to the law of Moses. --- That means we are no longer under the Law and are not condemned by it. -- But saying this to the religious is not fruitful since men love their religion more than the truth just as the Jews loved theirs more than God.

 

[Episkopos]

The jews were invited first to the Kingdom, then the Gentiles. We know this because the bible says first to the jew.
We also know this to be true because God has no favorites. Israel is all believers, there is no distinction.

With this man made doctrine you would have to disregard all of Jesus' words! Dangerous!

Richard speaks death.

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

Again in your response, you are missing some obvious truths.

First of all, it is the blood of Jesus Christ, of the tribe of Judah, which is the blood of the New Covenant - the everlasting covenant that God made with mankind through His relationship with the Israelites - is the agent by which men are brought into fellowship with God though faith in Jesus Christ's death and resurrection.

His church, was full of Israelites (and believing non-Israelites) who had left the Old Covenant, to join the New Covenant in His blood.



The first Gentile convert to the New Covenant was Cornelius, who believed Peter's preaching of the same gospel which Paul preached after Paul's conversion.



There is no verse in the New Testament where Paul says he is the only apostle with the revelation of which you speak. All he states is that he has had the same revelation as the other apostles.




Paul tells us the Gentiles have been brought into the same Church as the Israelites. Together, they are now 'one new man'.



Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye [Gentiles] were without Christ,

being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, [which covenants of promise?]

having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye [Gentiles] who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


16 And that he might reconcile both [Israelites and Gentiles] to God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you [Gentiles] which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

19 Now therefore ye [Gentiles] are no more strangers and foreigners,

but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [aka 'the commonwealth of Israel' v12]​

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together grows into an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye [Gentiles] also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.





Richard, there is only one Church. It contains members from all the families of mankind. There is no separate church for Gentiles.

 

[JohnnyB]

Richard,

You miss the point of the entire gospel!

Jesus came here to set up His Kingdom, He only has one. You are creating a division where none exists. A divided house will not stand.

The church is Israel, we are His Body, He only has one of those, too.

 

[Episkopos]

The title of this thread is very ironic!

 

[JohnnyB]

The title of this thread is very ironic!

LOL
It should be called "The Grandiose Error - Find it in the Op"

 

[Pelaides]

In John4:14 Jesus talks to a samarian wqman(a non jew) "But whosoever drinketh of the water that i shall give him shall never thirst;but the water that i give shall be in him the well of life." In those days jews never spoke to samarians.But jesus brought many samarians into the fold.

 

[RichardBurger]

In John4:14 Jesus talks to a samarian wqman(a non jew) "But whosoever drinketh of the water that i shall give him shall never thirst;but the water that i give shall be in him the well of life." In those days jews never spoke to samarians.But jesus brought many samarians into the fold.

Why do you say a non-Jew? The Samarians were Jews who had intermarried.

Do you wish to discount the words of Jesus when He said the following? Are you imposing your ideas over the words of Jesus?

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


These two verses were spoken by Jesus and the religious just can't seem to acknowledge that He said them. Why! Because these words interfer with their theology.

 

[Axehead]

Maybe Richard subscribes to "Two House Theology", which states that Christians are the "Lost Tribes" of Israel. They believe that one day the "lost tribes" (i.e. the church) will be united with the house of Judah (i.e. the Jews) under the terms of the New Covenant. "Two-House" doctrine is replacement theology in reverse.

Axehead

 

[ttruscott]

A Common Error:
Grace = unmerited (unearned) favor = you do not have to work for it. It is free.

If we assume, as some say, that grace was always the gospel in effect then we have to see that God was unfair when He brought about the flood, when he scattered the human race, when He choose a certain people (the Jews) to be His own. God was unfair when He imposed laws for the Jews to follow with the penalty of death if they were not followed.

Your error is that while grace IS in fact free from the beginning it is only free to some, the elect, and not all, so the contradiction exists in your mind and solved creatively but wrongly...

Peace. Ted

 

[RichardBurger]

Maybe Richard subscribes to "Two House Theology", which states that Christians are the "Lost Tribes" of Israel. They believe that one day the "lost tribes" (i.e. the church) will be united with the house of Judah (i.e. the Jews) under the terms of the New Covenant. "Two-House" doctrine is replacement theology in reverse.

Axehead

Why do you say false things about what I believe? I have never said that Christians are the lost tribes of Israel. They certainly ARE NOT the lost tribes of Israel. Why are you wanting to make a false claim against me and paint me with your brush of false ideas? ---I understand why. It is because the religious have always persecuted the children of God. It was the religious that had Jesus murdered, Stephen stoned to death and that persecuted Paul and it is the religious that will not let others believe that salvation is the work of God.

True Christians are those that place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of God on the cross. These know that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross has paid for their salvation, has reconciled them to God. The work of salvation is totally a work of God. All that is required is that you believe in His work.

 

[Axehead]

Why do you say false things about what I believe? I have never said that Christians are the lost tribes of Israel. They certainly ARE NOT the lost tribes of Israel. Why are you wanting to make a false claim against me and paint me with your brush of false ideas? ---I understand why. It is because the religious have always persecuted the children of God. It was the religious that had Jesus murdered, Stephen stoned to death and that persecuted Paul and it is the religious that will not let others believe that salvation is the work of God.

True Christians are those that place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of God on the cross. These know that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross has paid for their salvation, has reconciled them to God. The work of salvation is totally a work of God. All that is required is that you believe in His work.

Richard, I said MAYBE, knowing full well that you are reading this thread (part of this conversation) and would gladly let us know. So, it was not a false claim. It was more of a question or thinking out loud, hoping you would answer.

Thank you for answering my surmisings.

Axehead

 

[JohnnyB]

Why do you say false things about what I believe? I have never said that Christians are the lost tribes of Israel. They certainly ARE NOT the lost tribes of Israel. Why are you wanting to make a false claim against me and paint me with your brush of false ideas? ---I understand why. It is because the religious have always persecuted the children of God. It was the religious that had Jesus murbdered, Stephen stoned to death and that persecuted Paul and it is the religious that will not let others believe that salvation is the work of God.

True Christians are those that place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of God on the cross. These know that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross has paid for their salvation, has reconciled them to God. The work of salvation is totally a work of God. All that is required is that you believe in His work.

I thought Axehead was onto something with the 2 house theology, there are similarities between what you teach and the other.

1).Both are unbibical

2). Both attempt to divide the Body of Christ.

 

[RichardBurger]

Dragonfly said:
Hi Richard,
*
Again in your response, you are missing some obvious truths.
*
First of all, it is the blood of Jesus Christ, of the tribe of Judah, which is the blood of the New Covenant - the everlasting covenant that God made with mankind through His relationship with the Israelites - is the agent by which men are brought into fellowship with God though faith in Jesus Christ's death and resurrection.
*
*** The “new covenant” that Jesus mentioned at His last supper was made with the Jews, not the Gentiles (See Jer 31:31-33 below). All I see in the 4 gospels and the first 8 or 9 chapters of Acts is that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and king and that the Jews had murdered Him. The gospel at that time was simply for the Jews to believe (accept) that Jesus was their Messiah and king. There is no teaching that the shed blood reconciles men to God outside of the Law of Moses.
*
Jer 31:31-33
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a “”new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah“”— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
NKJV
*
Heb 8:7-9
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah —
NKJV
***********
*
His church, was full of Israelites (and believing non-Israelites) who had left the Old Covenant, to join the New Covenant in His blood. -- The first Gentile convert to the New Covenant was Cornelius, who believed Peter's preaching of the same gospel which Paul preached after Paul's conversion.
*
*** What gospel did Peter preach? Was it a gospel that said he was dead to the Law or just that Jesus was the Messiah and King of Israel? With the exception of Corneluis, what other Gentiles were saved through Peter‘s preaching? Show me where Peter ever preached to the Gentiles other than Corneluis.
*********
*
There is no verse in the New Testament where Paul says he is the only apostle with the revelation of which you speak. All he states is that he has had the same revelation as the other apostles.
*
*** Those are your words. Show me where the scripture says Paul had the same revelation as the other Apostles. As a matter of fact Peter did not know that the Gentiles were going to be brought in until God gave him a vision.
*
Paul tells us the Gentiles have been brought into the same Church as the Israelites. Together, they are now 'one new man'.
*


Ephesians 2:1-12 Paul is talking to Gentile believers
1 And you (Gentiles) He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
*
NOTE: Together does not mean Gentile with Jews. It means the believers in the grace gospel. No where in this writing has it been said that it is written to the Jews.
*
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
*
Brought Near by His Blood
*
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh — who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands —
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
NKJV
*
*** Nowhere is the word “church” used in these verses. Paul is speaking to Gentiles in Ephesians, not the Jews.
**********
*
Richard, there is only one Church. It contains members from all the families of mankind. There is no separate church for Gentiles.
*
*** There is no church in this age of grace. The children of God are placed “IN CHRIST” and are the body of Christ.
*
Seems like you are missing some obvious truths

Richard, I said MAYBE, knowing full well that you are reading this thread (part of this conversation) and would gladly let us know. So, it was not a false claim. It was more of a question or thinking out loud, hoping you would answer.

Thank you for answering my surmisings.

Axehead

It is wrong to start a false idae about another. Thy shall not bare false witness.

I thought Axehead was onto something with the 2 house theology, there are similarities between what you teach and the other.

1).Both are unbibical

2). Both attempt to divide the Body of Christ.

The body of Christ is made up of those children of God saved by placing their belief, faith, trust and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross, His shed blood. It is not a man made, man organized, man ran organized physical church. It is made by God without the hands of men.

 

[JohnnyB]

Richard,
The Church is made of those who walk in the power of the resurrected Christ, conforming to His image, overcoming all things through Him and doing the will of the Father.

The definition you have provided would be for someone still on milk, having not advanced to the meat.

 

[Episkopos]

Richard,
The Church is made of those who walk in the power of the resurrected Christ, conforming to His image, overcoming all things through Him and doing the will of the Father.

The definition you have provided would be for someone still on milk, having not advanced to the meat.

Well said!!!!