A False Teaching about the Cross and Jesus being Crucified

[Kenneth Jude Ramagost]

Crucified and cross have the same definition in some major Concordances and I use interchangeably both terms in my explanations. The false teaching is Jesus dying on the cross was Him crucified.

The New Testament shows Christ was crucified died and rose from the dead and, by Greek definition, He figuratively denied self for His death on the cross. IE the NT exclusively shows one-way He was crucified denying self which resulted in His death, resurrection and bringing His blood as a sacrificial offering to His father.

Also, the Old Testament shows His crucifixion was self-denial which is a true understanding of God’s will. Abram believed God would raise Isaac from the dead and God the Father believed He would raise Jesus because of Abrahams work of faith. Then God could allow His son Jesus to die and will raise Him. This could not have happened until man (Abraham) denied self and gave his son by a work of faith. Therefore, the OT shows Jesus was crucified same as Abraham’s faith of self-denial. Both Jesus and Abraham denied-self which allowed them to be physically crucified, first Abraham for his son then God for His Son, Abraham son’s actual physical death was stopped by God because there was no need for this to happen.

Basis for this teaching

Preaching the cross or His crucifixion is preaching His death on the cross?

Preaching the cross is NOT preaching His death on the cross and scripture shows His cross, by Greek definition, is Him impaled on a wood stake and this seems to be an accurate understanding of preaching the cross. But further review of this scripture shows God’s understanding of what preaching the cross is. The cross is defined as a stake and figuratively self-denial per Greek definition. 1 Corinthians 1:18. By definition figurative language is new insight into a word. This new insight (Self-Denial) is God’s insight and is beyond the insight of being impaled on the cross. Figuratively, exposure to death, IE self-denial is to deny self and when we deny self He can live in us and we are following in His footsteps same as when He denied self unto death on the cross.

Example of usage of figuratively:

Examples of Figurative Language: Guide to 12 Common Types

Vocabulary.com figuratively/literally

figuratively vs. literally on Vocabulary.com

The Greek definition of Deny in Matthew 16:24 when Jesus said let him deny is to lose one’s self-intere

 

[Robert Gwin]

Crucified and cross have the same definition in some major Concordances and I use interchangeably both terms in my explanations. The false teaching is Jesus dying on the cross was Him crucified.

The New Testament shows Christ was crucified died and rose from the dead and, by Greek definition, He figuratively denied self for His death on the cross. IE the NT exclusively shows one-way He was crucified denying self which resulted in His death, resurrection and bringing His blood as a sacrificial offering to His father.

Also, the Old Testament shows His crucifixion was self-denial which is a true understanding of God’s will. Abram believed God would raise Isaac from the dead and God the Father believed He would raise Jesus because of Abrahams work of faith. Then God could allow His son Jesus to die and will raise Him. This could not have happened until man (Abraham) denied self and gave his son by a work of faith. Therefore, the OT shows Jesus was crucified same as Abraham’s faith of self-denial. Both Jesus and Abraham denied-self which allowed them to be physically crucified, first Abraham for his son then God for His Son, Abraham son’s actual physical death was stopped by God because there was no need for this to happen.

Basis for this teaching

Preaching the cross or His crucifixion is preaching His death on the cross?

Preaching the cross is NOT preaching His death on the cross and scripture shows His cross, by Greek definition, is Him impaled on a wood stake and this seems to be an accurate understanding of preaching the cross. But further review of this scripture shows God’s understanding of what preaching the cross is. The cross is defined as a stake and figuratively self-denial per Greek definition. 1 Corinthians 1:18. By definition figurative language is new insight into a word. This new insight (Self-Denial) is God’s insight and is beyond the insight of being impaled on the cross. Figuratively, exposure to death, IE self-denial is to deny self and when we deny self He can live in us and we are following in His footsteps same as when He denied self unto death on the cross.

Example of usage of figuratively:

Examples of Figurative Language: Guide to 12 Common Types

Vocabulary.com figuratively/literally

figuratively vs. literally on Vocabulary.com

The Greek definition of Deny in Matthew 16:24 when Jesus said let him deny is to lose one’s self-intere

Hi Ken, many have idolized the cross, which is really irrelevant to Christians as it has nothing to do with Christianity. Makes one wonder why so much emphasis is put on it when it makes absolutely no sense. If someone shot your son and your friends started wearing guns and painting them on their cars and such would it be pleasing to you? I certainly cannot figure the fascination of it all.

At any rate, it was Jesus' death, the sacrifice of his flesh and blood that redeemed mankind. The instrument of his death has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. In fact it quite likely wasn't a cross anyway. The Bible stated it was a stauros, which is defined as an upright pole. It also used the term xylon which is translated tree, or in other words wood.

 

[post]

The false teaching is Jesus dying on the cross

i don't think a person who denies the death, burial & resurrection of Christ should be making threads in a 'Bible Study' forum.

in fact i don't know what business you think you have on a "Christian" chat forum, at all.

 

[post]

in fact i don't know what business you think you have on a "Christian" chat forum, at all.

which to say, @Kenneth Jude Ramagost,
it is manifest that you are a blaspheming gnostic, not a Christian.

IMO you should not speak here. certainly not in the guise of a teacher.

 

[post]

The Bible stated it was a stauros, which is defined as an upright pole.

you're ignoring period usage & connotation of the vocabulary, history & the facts of documented Roman methodology.
you are pretending a 19th century heretic's musings have more historical weight than 2nd-3rd century second tier witnesses to the actual event.

but you know what? that's still a more legitimate topic of discussion than the OP.

 

[Robert Gwin]

you're ignoring period usage & connotation of the vocabulary, history & the facts of documented Roman methodology.
you are pretending a 19th century heretic's musings have more historical weight than 2nd-3rd century second tier witnesses to the actual event.

but you know what? that's still a more legitimate topic of discussion than the OP.

No one knows what the stauros looks like Post. Any description of it is simply speculation.

 

[Addy]

IMO you should not speak here. certainly not in the guise of a teacher.

Have I told you lately how magnificent your sword is?? It glows with powerful splendor!!!

 

[post]

No one knows what the stauros looks like Post. Any description of it is simply speculation.

Wouldn't you agree that 2nd and 3rd century speculation, the people who were taught directly by the apostles who actually saw it, is more likely to be accurate than contrary speculation 1800 years later?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Wouldn't you agree that 2nd and 3rd century speculation, the people who were taught directly by the apostles who actually saw it, is more likely to be accurate than contrary speculation 1800 years later?

Yes sir I sure do, but not that late. Perhaps you are unaware of the apostasy and the actual death of Christianity. Many antichrists were already on the scene just before John's death. It would not be until these last days that Biblical truth would again be revealed Dan 12:4; Isa 2:2-4

Whether one sees the stauros as a cross or a stake it is irrelevant as it is of no consequence, as I stated no one knows what it looked like, but if one idolizes it they have a spiritual problem.

What is important is the greatest sacrifice of all times given in our behalf Post.

 

[post]

What is important is the greatest sacrifice of all times given in our behalf

Amen

Based on John 3 I would intuit that it looked just like what the serpent was hung on, in the wilderness. From. My experience if I needed to lift up a serpent in a hurry, because peoples lives were in the balance, I'd stick a cross beam on it so I'd have something to drape it over. You know? I'm not going to get a nail through a piece of bronze.

Which is nothing but speculation of course.
What matters is that He came down from heaven, He died for us, and rose - that He ascended and He will return

=]

 

[Robert Gwin]

Amen

Based on John 3 I would intuit that it looked just like what the serpent was hung on, in the wilderness. From. My experience if I needed to lift up a serpent in a hurry, because peoples lives were in the balance, I'd stick a cross beam on it so I'd have something to drape it over. You know? I'm not going to get a nail through a piece of bronze.

Which is nothing but speculation of course.
What matters is that He came down from heaven, He died for us, and rose - that He ascended and He will return

=]

When you understand the mode of death, an upright pole is much more efficient, at least that is what I found to be true. There is a lot of evidence of paganism in why the cross was chosen as the method of death available today Post. We truly live in the age of information.

 

[post]

There is a lot of evidence of paganism in why the cross was chosen as the method of death

If the symbol of T is used by pagans isn't the Ashereh pole also?
That's not evidence. It's circumstantial association from an entirely different culture.

 

[Windmill Charge]

When you understand the mode of death, an upright pole is much more efficient, at least that is what I found to be true. There is a lot of evidence of paganism in why the cross was chosen as the method of death available today Post. We truly live in the age of information.

The pagan romans were not after efficiency, they wanted to demonstrate what happens if you break our laws.
An efficient method of excution would be to simple stap the criminal, or chop his head off.
Cricifixtion was a drawn out humiliating ritual of causing a lingering death.

The apostles and authors of the NT, plus the early church fathers all mention a cross. There witness should stand as sufficient.

 

[Robert Gwin]

If the symbol of T is used by pagans isn't the Ashereh pole also?
That's not evidence. It's circumstantial association from an entirely different culture.

I am not sure Post, I was always understanding it to be primarily representative of the god tammuz

 

[Robert Gwin]

The pagan romans were not after efficiency, they wanted to demonstrate what happens if you break our laws.
An efficient method of excution would be to simple stap the criminal, or chop his head off.
Cricifixtion was a drawn out humiliating ritual of causing a lingering death.

The apostles and authors of the NT, plus the early church fathers all mention a cross. There witness should stand as sufficient.

No NT writer mentioned the cross sir. You simply have not researched it.

 

[post]

I am not sure Post, I was always understanding it to be primarily representative of the god tammuz

My point is so what?
Maybe JWs secretly worship Ishtar and that's why they say He was nailed to an Ashereh pole.
What kind of evidence is that speculation?
It's not evidence at all. It's conspiracy theory.

 

[Brakelite]

When you understand the mode of death, an upright pole is much more efficient, at least that is what I found to be true. There is a lot of evidence of paganism in why the cross was chosen as the method of death available today Post. We truly live in the age of information.

The Romans weren't interested in an efficient death. They wanted to prolong the suffering for as long as possible... Hence their surprise at the death of Jesus on that same afternoon, which in a sense supports the OP, that the crucifixion did not kill Jesus... He offered His life a ransom for many... What killed Jesus was the weight of burden of sin. Yours, mine, and everyone else's throughout history.

 

[post]

What killed Jesus was the weight of burden of sin

Nothing "killed" Him. Nothing can.
He is God - He lays His own life down and picks it up again. No one & no thing takes it from Him.

 

[Addy]

@post.... Smiling at my skeleton friend.

 

[farouk]

Philippians 2 says that the Lord Jesus was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.