A False Teaching about the Cross and Jesus being Crucified

[GEN2REV]

In defense of the traditional cross, as opposed to the stake (l) or the other cross (T), there is a very interesting detail from the Old Testament that gives amazing confirmation to its shape.

The Israelite camp was laid out in such a way, commanded by God, so as to form the shape of the cross.

I heard/read about this quite a few years ago and took a very close look at the scriptures surrounding this event and discovered that it was absolutely true.

Pretty fascinating.

This took place roughly the 12th - 13th Century B.C. - LONG before Christ was even born.

ETA: And these are the type of details from scripture that truly prove the significance, Truth and accuracy of the Bible. This is not something that is obvious in reading the Bible, it must be looked at very closely to discover this. A detail that prophesied Christ's death, and the manner thereof, from over a millennia prior, that would be very unlikely to have been placed into a man-made story to fool the masses.

 

[post]

There is no deception in whom we worship Post. We actually bear the name of the God we worship and serve exclusively. You know it, as well as any honest hearted one, you are simply trying to be provocative.

um, no, i'm trying to show you how silly the argument that "well in some culture somewhere a couple of crossed lines represented a certain pagan deity therefore the cross is a pagan symbol, because RCC and stuff" is.
i can equally make the same argument about an Ashereh pole -- a deity the Jews actually did prostitute themselves to.
so there's no merit in that

and the other thing is that we know from History that the Romans often used a permanent upright pole with a crossbeam, that both the upright & the crossbeam were referred to by the word stauros, particularly in Israel where it was very significant to the culture that a body be buried the same day the person died. and we know that the condemned would carry that crossbeam ((not the upright which would be too heavy for any one to carry individually)) in a ritualized procession from the place of judgement to the place of execution. so your arguments about the word stauros have no merit.

furthermore you argued that 'impaling' someone on a stake is more efficient - but as has already been said, the Romans were not trying to be efficient. they were trying to prolong the suffering and specatacle, for reasons of deterrence. for example they would put a peg for the feet to rest on specifically so that the person would not asphyxiate ((see Isaiah 22:25!)) and die too quickly. so your argument about efficiency also has no merit.


i am not "trying to be provocative" i am teaching you that your pet theory is meritless.
and i am doing so here because as we all know the OP post is absolute trash -- and like i said from the beginning, this isn't much of a topic either but it's more worthy of discussion than the OP is.

 

[Enoch111]

Irrelevant sir, what is said is either fact or fiction.

The FACT is that Roman crosses had cross-beams nailed to a stake, which made the crosses. Check it out for yourself and don't promote JW baloney.

 

[Curtis]

You are using a version of the Bible sir, if you check the word was stauros for every verse you used. The translators of your selected version chose to translate stauros as cross.

Because stauros means either a stake or a cross, and we have this thing called history, which states that the Romans executed people using a cross - an upright pole with a crossbeam, so we know which of the two meanings of stauros to use.

In fact the Bible says Jesus was made to carry the crossbeam to His crucifixion.

You can spin facts, but can’t change facts.

The watchtower is wrong, as per usual.

Shalom

 

[Curtis]

um, no, i'm trying to show you how silly the argument that "well in some culture somewhere a couple of crossed lines represented a certain pagan deity therefore the cross is a pagan symbol, because RCC and stuff" is.
i can equally make the same argument about an Ashereh pole -- a deity the Jews actually did prostitute themselves to.
so there's no merit in that

and the other thing is that we know from History that the Romans often used a permanent upright pole with a crossbeam, that both the upright & the crossbeam were referred to by the word stauros, particularly in Israel where it was very significant to the culture that a body be buried the same day the person died. and we know that the condemned would carry that crossbeam ((not the upright which would be too heavy for any one to carry individually)) in a ritualized procession from the place of judgement to the place of execution. so your arguments about the word stauros have no merit.

furthermore you argued that 'impaling' someone on a stake is more efficient - but as has already been said, the Romans were not trying to be efficient. they were trying to prolong the suffering and specatacle, for reasons of deterrence. for example they would put a peg for the feet to rest on specifically so that the person would not asphyxiate ((see Isaiah 22:25!)) and die too quickly. so your argument about efficiency also has no merit.


i am not "trying to be provocative" i am teaching you that your pet theory is meritless.
and i am doing so here because as we all know the OP post is absolute trash -- and like i said from the beginning, this isn't much of a topic either but it's more worthy of discussion than the OP is.

Actually it’s the watchtowers pet theory - the same group that denies the bodily resurrection and ascension of Jesus, and claims He’s really an invisible ghost now.

That’s in reality a non-resurrection that they teach.

Maranatha

 

[Curtis]

You are using a version of the Bible sir, if you check the word was stauros for every verse you used. The translators of your selected version chose to translate stauros as cross.

The point there also, is the preaching of Jesus death and the cross is frequent in scripture, refuting your claim about Christians referring to it frequently.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

many have idolized the cross, which is really irrelevant to Christians as it has nothing to do with Christianity. Makes one wonder why so much emphasis is put on it when it makes absolutely no sense.

It made sense to Paul:

"But as for me, may I never boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Galatians 6:14

You're not making the cross an idol by boasting in it. Do you boast in the cross? I do.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No one knows what the stauros looks like Post. Any description of it is simply speculation.

It's unimportant what literally constituted the construction of the cross of Jesus.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Whether one sees the stauros as a cross or a stake it is irrelevant as it is of no consequence, as I stated no one knows what it looked like...

Okay, good, you realize the actual construction of the cross is irrelevant. But you seem to be making it relevant by insisting on a 'we don't know how it was built' argument.

...but if one idolizes it they have a spiritual problem.

Do you consider boasting in the cross idolizing it?

 

[Truman]

Okay, good, you realize the actual construction of the cross is irrelevant. But you seem to be making it relevant by insisting on a 'we don't know how it was built' argument.


Do you consider boasting in the cross idolizing it?

It wouldn't be the first time someone made an idol out of a piece of wood.
Why are we even talking about this?
It's about the One who was nailed to it.
Do you know how much it must've hurt to have nails hammered through your hands and feet?
And then be hung on them until you died?
He did that for me! You, too, but on a personal level, He did that for me!
What an awesome thing to do for me!
Take me, Lord, and do whatever You want with me!

 

[Robert Gwin]

If we are to have sound reasoning then we must believe Jesus' words here:

John 10:17-18 KJV
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

If the cross didn't kill the other two then what makes you think it killed Jesus? That idea is flawed. The evidence suggests that Jesus legs would have to be broken for it to kill him had he been mere man like the other two on the cross. Do you believe Jesus' words in the bible above that I posted?

Historical fact Devin, confirmed in the Bible, Jesus was hung on a stauros, and it resulted in his death, accept it or not. I personally believe that is a fact.

 

[Robert Gwin]

um, no, i'm trying to show you how silly the argument that "well in some culture somewhere a couple of crossed lines represented a certain pagan deity therefore the cross is a pagan symbol, because RCC and stuff" is.
i can equally make the same argument about an Ashereh pole -- a deity the Jews actually did prostitute themselves to.
so there's no merit in that

and the other thing is that we know from History that the Romans often used a permanent upright pole with a crossbeam, that both the upright & the crossbeam were referred to by the word stauros, particularly in Israel where it was very significant to the culture that a body be buried the same day the person died. and we know that the condemned would carry that crossbeam ((not the upright which would be too heavy for any one to carry individually)) in a ritualized procession from the place of judgement to the place of execution. so your arguments about the word stauros have no merit.

furthermore you argued that 'impaling' someone on a stake is more efficient - but as has already been said, the Romans were not trying to be efficient. they were trying to prolong the suffering and specatacle, for reasons of deterrence. for example they would put a peg for the feet to rest on specifically so that the person would not asphyxiate ((see Isaiah 22:25!)) and die too quickly. so your argument about efficiency also has no merit.


i am not "trying to be provocative" i am teaching you that your pet theory is meritless.
and i am doing so here because as we all know the OP post is absolute trash -- and like i said from the beginning, this isn't much of a topic either but it's more worthy of discussion than the OP is.

The Bible states Jesus died on a Stauros, and I believe it sir. No one knows what it looks like, and it is unimportant to me personally.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The FACT is that Roman crosses had cross-beams nailed to a stake, which made the crosses. Check it out for yourself and don't promote JW baloney.

Jesus died on a stauros, accept it or not sir. No one knows the appearance of it.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Because stauros means either a stake or a cross, and we have this thing called history, which states that the Romans executed people using a cross - an upright pole with a crossbeam, so we know which of the two meanings of stauros to use.

In fact the Bible says Jesus was made to carry the crossbeam to His crucifixion.

You can spin facts, but can’t change facts.

The watchtower is wrong, as per usual.

Shalom

Although I wouldn't have did it myself, Jesus did in fact carry his wooden beam to his own execution. I teach Jesus died on a stauros as the Bible teaches sir. I state very clearly that no one knows what it looked like. I also teach it is of no consequence what you believe, unless of course you idolize it as a religious symbol as many have done.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The point there also, is the preaching of Jesus death and the cross is frequent in scripture, refuting your claim about Christians referring to it frequently.

No sir, the term stauros is mentioned frequently. We mention it often, but usually in reference to Jesus' death.

 

[Robert Gwin]

It made sense to Paul:

"But as for me, may I never boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Galatians 6:14

You're not making the cross an idol by boasting in it. Do you boast in the cross? I do.

You do understand Ferris, that Paul was not boasting in the instrument of Jesus' death correct? He was boasting about the sacrifice given in our behalf, and the responsibility it places upon each of Jesus' disciples. Do you understand that? Yes similar to Paul, being a disciple of Christ I fully recognize my responsibility to make known to others all the things Jesus commanded Mat 28:20

Your observing me doing this daily here is evidence of my boasting

 

[Robert Gwin]

It's unimportant what literally constituted the construction of the cross of Jesus.

Not really, it was Jesus' death that was consequential. The mode of death was used on many criminals in Rome, which had no bearing on our future whatsoever.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Okay, good, you realize the actual construction of the cross is irrelevant. But you seem to be making it relevant by insisting on a 'we don't know how it was built' argument.


Do you consider boasting in the cross idolizing it?

A person idolizes something when they bow down to it, or before it. Do you see any faiths that bow down before a cross in prayer to God, or makes the symbol of a cross in their prayers or worship?

I went to a funeral of a friend yesterday and there was crosses everywhere, it is in fact a religious symbol to many faiths sir, a graven image used for religious purposes.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

it was Jesus' death that was consequential.

Yes, and so we should stop being contentious about what actually constituted the construction of the cross He was crucified on. 'Cross' in Galatians 6:14 is a metonymy for the sacrificial death of Christ. It's not intended to argue one way or the other how the cross was actually constructed. It's just as wrong to be contentious about what the cross didn't look like as it wrong to be contentious about what the cross did look like. It's a non issue. What matters is that, on it, He died the death that we owe for our sin.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

A person idolizes something when they bow down to it, or before it. Do you see any faiths that bow down before a cross in prayer to God, or makes the symbol of a cross in their prayers or worship?

I went to a funeral of a friend yesterday and there was crosses everywhere, it is in fact a religious symbol to many faiths sir, a graven image used for religious purposes.

I knew right away the whole point was to discredit the Catholic church.
We don't need to toss out the cross, or argue about how it was actually constructed, just because someone idolizes it.