A heretical teaching dismantled with the help of Paul the Evangelist.

[Sigma]

Out of interest "what does it matter?"

The Truth matters, just not to you apparently.

 

[face2face]

The Truth matters, just not to you apparently.

You missed the point of the question...whats your motive? Are you trying to defend your churches dogma? Are you wanting to prove a divine principle and if so, what? Let's hear it!

 

[Sigma]

You missed the point of the question...whats your motive? Are you trying to defend your churches dogma? Are you wanting to prove a divine principle and if so, what? Let's hear it!

Again, to show that the teaching that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings is a false one, by providing evidence they were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), because the Truth matters.

Gal 1:9 & Mark 6:3 is more than not considered to the the eldest after Jesus (by Joseph and Mary) —unfortuntely for you there is no hint anywhere in the NT that James and the others mentioned in Mark 6:3 were anything other than full brothers of Jesus.

You or I can twist it either way!

F2F

If they were Jesus's siblings, they wouldn't have been full siblings, but rather half-siblings, as they wouldn't have shared Joseph as a father. However, again, as I said in post #15:

"The flaw in your believing James of the four "siblings" of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person is that the latter was one of the Twelve, which means that he could've only been either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.

However, you are right that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. I've provided evidence which confirms that, as well as evidence that shows he was the apostle James of Alphaeus, and that he and his three siblings were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), and thus were Jesus's cousins, not siblings.

I have yet to receive an answer from you to my question in post #12 as well.

 

[face2face]

Again, to show that the teaching that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings is a false one, by providing evidence they were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), because the Truth matters.



If they were Jesus's siblings, they wouldn't have been full siblings, but rather half-siblings, as they wouldn't have shared Joseph as a father. However, again, as I said in post #15:

"The flaw in your believing James of the four "siblings" of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person is that the latter was one of the Twelve, which means that he could've only been either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.

However, you are right that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. I've provided evidence which confirms that, as well as evidence that shows he was the apostle James of Alphaeus, and that he and his three siblings were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), and thus were Jesus's cousins, not siblings.

I have yet to receive an answer from you to my question in post #12 as well.

No Sigma, I'll ask again.
What does your truth prove to you? Are you able to communicate it simply?
F2F

 

[Sigma]

No Sigma, I'll ask again.
What does your truth prove to you? Are you able to communicate it simply?

You asked me my motive and I told you, and now you're asking me something else. The teaching that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings is a false one, because of the evidence that says they were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus).

Gal 1:9 & Mark 6:3 is more than not considered to the the eldest after Jesus (by Joseph and Mary) —unfortuntely for you there is no hint anywhere in the NT that James and the others mentioned in Mark 6:3 were anything other than full brothers of Jesus.

You or I can twist it either way!

F2F

If they were Jesus's siblings, they wouldn't have been full siblings, but rather half-siblings, as they wouldn't have shared Joseph as a father. However, again, as I said in post #15:

"The flaw in your believing James of the four "siblings" of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person is that the latter was one of the Twelve, which means that he could've only been either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.

However, you are right that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. I've provided evidence which confirms that, as well as evidence that shows he was the apostle James of Alphaeus, and that he and his three siblings were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), and thus were Jesus's cousins, not siblings.

I have yet to receive an answer from you to my question in post #12 as well.

 

[Truthnightmare]

We know that two of them wrote Epistles, one was Jude, the other James.​

Galatians 1:19
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. KJV
Jude 1
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: KJV
Mark 6:3
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda [Jude in Greek], and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us ? And they were offended at him. KJV​

The Bible doesn't speak of the fate of the Apostles, nor of Christ's brothers, save for Apostle James (not the James of Jesus' family), which is why he is referred to as "James the less":​

Mark 15:40
0 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; KJV
Acts 1:13
13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John , and Andrew, Philip , and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew , James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. KJV​

Matthew 4:21-22
21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him. KJV
Acts 12:2
And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. KJV​

 

[face2face]

You asked me my motive and I told you, and now you're asking me something else. The teaching that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings is a false one, because of the evidence that says they were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus).

It's obvious you are having real difficulties in answering this question.

Read your above reply and ask yourself "so what?" what is the lesson if she did or didn't have children.

Try again!

If they were Jesus's siblings, they wouldn't have been full siblings, but rather half-siblings, as they wouldn't have shared Joseph as a father. However, again, as I said in post #15:

Again, so what! What is the lesson you are trying to teach? What does it matter if Mary did, or didn't have children with Joseph?

"The flaw in your believing James of the four "siblings" of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person is that the latter was one of the Twelve, which means that he could've only been either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.

However, you are right that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. I've provided evidence which confirms that, as well as evidence that shows he was the apostle James of Alphaeus, and that he and his three siblings were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), and thus were Jesus's cousins, not siblings.

I have yet to receive an answer from you to my question in post #12 as well.

Nothing you right offers me anything of significance whatsoever.

Do you know what a spiritual principle is?

Provide just 1!

 

[Sigma]

Again, so what! What is the lesson you are trying to teach? What does it matter if Mary did, or didn't have children with Joseph?

So what? Then, why you have you been trying to defend your belief that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's siblings for weeks?? It's funny how only after you're backed into a corner and can't reasonably defend your position that it suddenly doesn't matter anymore. The reason you can't defend your position, much less address my latest argument to you, is because your belief isn't true, and I've shown that its not. If it was true, you wouldn't have resorted to "So what?" as an argument. You won't see me saying that, because I have evidence and the full Truth of this matter on my side. I care about the Truth and I care about you and others accepting the Truth of this matter for the simple reason that its True. I'll repeat the Truth at every opportunity. That's called conviction.

 

[face2face]

So what?

It matters Sigma, why waste your time here trying to teach something which you cannot provide a spiritual benefit? What's the point? We could speak about a thousand more things of greater importance.

Then, why you have you been trying to defend your belief that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's siblings for weeks??

It's futile either way!

It's funny how only after you're backed into a corner and can't reasonably defend your position that it suddenly doesn't matter anymore.

No, you know that's not it - I am genuinely trying to get you to provide a spiritual benefit to your posts, and you can't provide one. Doesn't that in itself, show you are are wasting your time on this?

The reason you can't defend your position, much less address my latest argument to you, is because your belief isn't true, and I've shown that its not. If it was true, you wouldn't have resorted to "So what?" as an argument. You won't see me saying that, because I have evidence and the full Truth of this matter on my side. I care about the Truth and I care about you and others accepting the Truth of this matter for the simple reason that its True. I'll repeat the Truth at every opportunity. That's called conviction.

Okay, let me put this way.

Let's say I agree with you - there, you are right and I am wrong.

What have I learned from you?

That a person didn't have children - okay, and what next? How am I richer for the experience?

F2F

 

[Behold]

In Gal. 1:18-19, it's indicated by Paul that James was both an apostle of the Twelve and a family member of Jesus​

Mary was not a "perpetual virgin".

Nor did she "ascend alive bodily into heaven"

And, she is not a "co-mediator in Heaven with Jesus"..

Mary was a sinner, who was "in Adam".... who had to "trust in Christ", exactly like all of us.

See, this verse..."ALL have sinned", applies to Mary. (All of them).

Its only JESUS who is "without sin".

 

[Marymog]

It's not doctrinal.
The fact your affiliation states Mary was a perpetual virgin is irrelevant to salvation or how to walk in the word.
How many threads on this now, how many rebukes by the scriptures?
You are going to believe what you have been taught regardless of what the word says in opposition.
Therefore, I'm done with seeing Catholic indoctrination.

Bye:

Hmmmm.....so, LAMB.......Let me see if I understand you correctly. Only YOUR doctrine is in harmony with the word of God?

I get it. You believe that Catholics are indoctrinated and The Catholic Church is not in harmony with the word of God. What about the Baptist? Lutheran's? Methodist? etc? Are you "done with seeing" their doctrine?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Gal 1:9 & Mark 6:3 is more than not considered to the the eldest after Jesus (by Joseph and Mary) —unfortuntely for you there is no hint anywhere in the NT that James and the others mentioned in Mark 6:3 were anything other than full brothers of Jesus.

You or I can twist it either way!

F2F

Not true F2F...... Many bible scholars and your own Christian history disagree with what you have been taught by your Protestant men. The 'Jesus had brothers' false teaching started AFTER the Protestant Revolution 500 years ago. The Revolution (destruction of Christianity), brought on by your men, threw away 1,500 years of Christian teaching/tradition.

The men you follow violated 2 Thessalonians 2:15!

 

[Marymog]

There is no need, everyone in this forum knows Mary had other children - what motivates you to suggest otherwise?

...................

F2F

I'm on this forum and I don't think Mary had other children.......the motivation is Scripture and Tradition! 2 Thessalonians 2:15

 

[Marymog]

You missed the point of the question...whats your motive? .............

The Truth......

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Hmmmm.....so, LAMB.......Let me see if I understand you correctly. Only YOUR doctrine is in harmony with the word of God?

I get it. You believe that Catholics are indoctrinated and The Catholic Church is not in harmony with the word of God. What about the Baptist? Lutheran's? Methodist? etc? Are you "done with seeing" their doctrine?

Curious Mary

Absolutely done, Curious Mary!

Denominal or men's doctrine and traditions are useless and only adds to the burdens of man seeking God.
The thing is most don't take it out in front of all men to beat like a dusty rug by the many repeat threads. Repetation can be a learning experience or it can really turn one against the hearing of.

 

[face2face]

Not true F2F...... Many bible scholars and your own Christian history disagree with what you have been taught by your Protestant men. The 'Jesus had brothers' false teaching started AFTER the Protestant Revolution 500 years ago. The Revolution (destruction of Christianity), brought on by your men, threw away 1,500 years of Christian teaching/tradition.

The men you follow violated 2 Thessalonians 2:15!

Sigma couldn't provide an answer to why its an important teaching. I wonder if you are able to provide one spiritual principle from your belief?
Let's see how you go.
F2F

 

[face2face]

The Truth......

Notice how both you and Sigma are struggling to show one principle in your teaching, not one!
It's telling.
F2F

 

[face2face]

This is not a hard question.

Why is it important to you that Mary had no children?

In your answer provide a spiritual principle - provide Scripture to support.

F2F

 

[Pearl]

True, it's your interpretation on this topic that isn't in harmony with it.

Oh dear, do I detect sour grapes?

 

[Taken]

Legal Parents:
….Joseph and Mary; Nazarenes

First delivery of Mary, while a virgin:
…Jesus: Nazarene
….Born; Jerusalem, Judah

Consummation of Marriage;
….After delivery of Jesus
….After lawful waiting period for the birth of a son.

Now, Mary was either Faithful and Obedient to God….OR she wasn’t!

Joseph: Head of Household.
Mary: Subject to her husband, to Multiply.

Children of Joseph & Mary:
Sons; James, Joseph, Simon, Judas & at least 2 daughters.

Fully (mans)Legal siblings of Jesus.
Fully (mans) Legal parents of Jesus.
None related to Jesus by BLOOD.

The Lords “brother”, was not James “the” Apostle.

James the Lords brother, saw Jesus after his resurrection, and became a believer and ministered in Jerusalem.