Stranger said:
Your'e not asking the same question at all. You suggested that a Christian could be told he was no longer saved and was a vessel fitted for destruction. Which is an impossibility. When God says "I never knew you" it means never. You were never saved. If one comes to Christ as Lord and Saviour, he is saved, forever. Else, eternal life isn't eternal.
You're not restating my question at all. This is why I went out of my way to request that people refrain from responding to questions that I didn't ask in the first place. I never asked a question about Christians that were "no longer saved". Read it again if you don't believe me. Regardless, many Christians can have a deep and sincere belief that they are truly saved and be well on their way to eternal damnation. Again, Paul's doctrine of election is clear that all are worthy of damnation. There is nothing one can do to be saved. Nothing one can do to escape the fires of eternal torment without the gift of repentance. Jesus Himself points out to his disciples that it was given to them to understand the scriptures, but even then they had to have his parables explained to them. Everyone else was not given this opportunity "lest they hear the good news and be saved". This is clearly not an option for them. No gift; no salvation.
I'm not addressing a different question. I'm just showing how yours is not a valid question. You're not asking the same thing Paul is. Scripture is clear about how to be saved. If one comes to Christ as his Lord and Saviour, then he is indeed saved forever. Else God is just lying to us and playing games. Which is what your question suggests.
Ah, I see. So you're claiming that my question suggests that God is lying to us and playing games? That's what you get out my question? Again, this isn't answering my question at all. You simply aren't even addressing it in the first place. Scripture should always be compared with scripture. One need always look at each passage within the context of the books as a whole. Jesus Himself even declares that we do not choose him, but it is He Who chooses us. Again this is right in line with Paul's doctrine of election. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that states a degenerate, depraved, defiled, destined to hell openly defiant fallen soul is willing, much less even capable to repent and believe the gospel.
Everyone is spiritually dead and the dead can't do much of anything except sin of course. The flesh is not only incapable of repenting and believing the gospel, it wouldn't matter if it could as Paul plainly states that the flesh cannot please God in the first place. That is what is impossible. God is the One Who does the calling. God is the One Who does the choosing. God is the One Who reveals the utter and complete depravity of the human condition. God is the One Who places the regenerated heart into this "new creature". God is the One Who sends His spirit of repentance. God is the One Who does the Saving. There is no believing without any of this in the first place.
So what's my point? My point is that you're making my point for me in that the process of salvation you just outlined is the exact opposite one that scripture presents. No on comes to Christ as their Lord and Savior. No one comes to Christ. It is the Father who draws them to Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit and it is exclusively by the will of the Holy Spirit "The Spirit goes where HE WILLS...etc." and it has nothing to do with what you or any other dead person thinks that they believe. Why? Because we're all dead prior to God's will to revive whomever He wills for His own purposes. So you see you are actually a prime candidate to answer this hypothetical question. Perhaps this is actually an example of "methinks the stranger doth protest too much..."
Having said that, it makes little difference if you're saved or not to answering my question. I'm simply asking you if the situation were as I've outlined, what would you do. Pretty simple. You chose instead to change the topic and discuss something altogether irrelevant which I respectfully addressed. Perhaps you could show me the same respect as well.
You say 'if this situation were to happen'. That is the point, it cannot happen.
You might want to look up the definition of a conditional statement. Conditional statements point to the fact that it actually is a definite possibility. Paul's question actually points to the fact that even if it were the case it doesn't change the fact that God is justified and righteous. So his question is most definitely stated as if it were the case.
There is really nothing to suggest that God's revelations to Balaam, Jonah, Saul, Pilate's wife, and many others indicated that damnation was an impossibility. God's revelation through Peter to those who thought they could get away with their lies was instantaneous judgement. Are you suggesting that they weren't sincere believers? What were they doing in the church in the first place if they weren't sincere in their belief?
Concerning Jonah, your'e the one assuming many things. God dealt with Jonah as a prophet, as a believer, as a child of God. That involves discipline many times. That in no way makes one a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction.
Jonah not only didn't believe God, he went as far as to inform on himself that the storm was his fault and that he be thrown overboard so that he might thwart God's will He would rather die than fulfill God's purpose. The text refers to his descent into the deep as "sheol" i.e. the grave;"hell".
He was in open rebellion against God. What makes one a vessel of wrath is God's purpose alone. What if God should make known his wrath on Jonah to show His mercy on Nineveh? No, it is you who is making the assumptions. Even after Jonah has reluctantly fulfilled God's will, all he can do is sulk and angrily pray for death. When God sends him a gourd to shade him from the sun. Jonah doesn't thank God like a believer would. No, he thanks the gourd itself choosing to recognize the creation rather than the Creator (see Paul's letter to the Romans chapter 1). He is in open defiant rebellion against God.
Again, Balaam was clearly no believer. He was quite literally a prophet for profit, and yet God revealed the future through him and his gift. This is one of the great and glaring misconceptions with people who think that they're saved. They think that just because they believe that they're saved, they must be saved. They think that just because they've stated that they believe that Christ is their savior they're saved as if to claim that they can manipulate the Holy Spirit in the same manner one would a demon. They think that because they have this gift from God Himself they must be saved. They see all of the blessings that he's bestowed upon them and they think they must be saved. This is not what scripture states though. When scripture points out that Jesus never knew these people, what do they respond with? They point to their works and the gifts God gave them. But these are not what these self proclaimed Christians needed to document they were truly Christians. They needed fruit, and fruit is the product of a systemic process that can never originate with the fruit, or the bud break, or the stems, or the branches. That is what is impossible.
What I said about Pharoah is not beside the point. Pharoah was a vessel of wrath. Big difference.
Sorry, but there is no difference between vessels of wrath and vessels of wrath. Again, you should either review what it is that I actually asked or just give up and move on.
I never said God didn't make vessels of wrath. He most assuredly does. What I said is that the believer who has accepted Christ as his Saviour, can never be one of those.
And I just pointed out from scripture that hell will be full of all of them because they believe that they are capable of coming to Christ in the first place. It is God that does the electing, and it has nothing to do with anything that we do or think or believe. We can know God only insofar as we are known of Him; the rest are truly strangers...
