A Little Season
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After watching the first eight minutes of the first video it appears the podcaster is building a case for Partial Preterits. Since I reject both PP and full Preterits I would like to know if this is the eschatological point of view being argued in the videos that I might know if watching them will be instructive for me, or a waste of my time?
If you have already determined that your view is the correct one, and there is no way that you could possibly learn or grow in knowledge through a thorough examination of the scriptures, then absolutely, don't spend the necessary time to do so.
But to suggest that studying the scriptures would be a waste of your time, because your knowledge and understanding of the scriptures is complete and completely infallible and not open to any further review, well my dear brother, if that's your position, then I think you have missed the whole point of studying the scriptures in the first place.
Respectfully, of course.
BTW, most of the first video is a very thorough examination of the scriptures, and little else. The clearly spoken words of Christ and His Apostles presented for your edification and encouragement. If you have no need for any additional edification, then by all means, continue on in whatever world view makes you comfortable.
Archie, my view of eschatology is formed by the doctrine of Amillennialism. I have spent untold hours not only researching the doctrines of Preterism, but also arguing against them. The thing I've found with other eschatological POV is that they use the Bible to prove what they already assume, rather than allowing the Bible to inform them.
I do appreciate your effort and the humble manner in which you present the study and do consider you to be a brother in Christ. I have been studying the Scriptures for many of my 74 years, and I too once believed what I had been taught in error. My challenge to you as you seem to have embraced the Preterits POV is that you seek out the Greek & Hebrew definitions of little words like "see" for instance, that can mean physical sight but often means mentally seeing, knowledge, understanding, perception, behold, be aware.
Take this verse for example. The Preterit uses this verse to prove those living in the first century AD would not die until they see Christ coming again in His Kingdom. In this they assume speaks of 70 AD when Christ came to judge the nation.
Matthew 16:28 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
The Greek word translated 'see' is εἴδω eídō, i'-do - defined be aware, behold, × can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot.
The verse correctly understood is simply saying that some who were standing with Jesus in the first century AD would not die until KNOWING that Christ has come in the Kingdom of God. IOW they must be born again, then they would know and understand they have entered into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through the power of the Holy Spirit.
One other thing that is very important to remember when studying the Word of God is that the Word will NEVER contradict! If our doctrine appears to cause contradiction in the Word of God, also remember error is not from the Word, but from our understanding of it.
Many blessings as you study the Word of God, may God give you wisdom that you might understand the difference between truth, and error.
Thank you for your response.
I respect your time and dedication to the thoughtful, and I presume prayerful study of Gods Holy Word. With that in mind, please carefully watch the video and get back to me with a point by point analysis of the scriptures presented.
I'm not 74, but I'm no spring chicken either, and I too have done careful study of the scriptures. And as I stated in my opening remarks, I brought no preconceived ideas or eschatological framework to my most recent studies.
If my conclusions are in error, I would certainly like to know where that error lies. I do not presume to have all the answers, and I am open to correction, in fact, I welcome it.
Hi Archie,
I have started listening to the first video and would like you please to give me some understanding. It was said that the thousand year reign of Christ has been where the saints reigned with Christ and there was peace on earth. Could you please tell me when that was?
Archie, I watched the first video, and it is almost exactly what I thought it would be. There is much there to consider. Without commenting on all that he's said, I will show how the verses he uses to support Preterism do not support what he alleges.
Matthew 3:2 (KJV) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 1:15 (KJV) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 10:9 (KJV) And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
1 Peter 4:7 (KJV) But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Just because this says the Kingdom of Heaven/God is at hand, is not reason to limit it to first century Jewish disciples, or 70 AD. Of course, the Kingdom of God is at hand, IOW made near and had come. Because Christ tells us He came with the Kingdom of God that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The Preterit would have us believe the Kingdom of God/Heaven being at hand meant that Christ was about to come again in the first century, about 40 years, specifically 70 AD. The fact that the Kingdom of God came with Christ and whosoever is born again of His Spirit both know (see with eyes of faith) the Kingdom had come and that entrance into the Kingdom is according to grace through faith is written for all people throughout all ages. The Preterit turns the coming of the Kingdom of God with Christ, into Christ spiritually coming again in 70 AD.
Matthew 10:23 (KJV) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
If this is pointing to Christ coming in 70 AD, why does Christ say "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mk 13:32)
The Son of Man should come, as Daniel had seen Him come (Dan 7:13) in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory, to complete the triumph of His kingdom. "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel." The natural result of such a promise was to lead the disciples to look forward to that coming as certain to be within their own lifetime and was the ground of the general expectation of its nearness which, beyond all doubt, pervaded the minds of men in the Apostolic age. Death, through persecution would prevent the first disciples from going to all the cities of Israel.
At Pentecost the Son of man came to the Father in heaven when Christ ascended up to heaven in the clouds and came to the Ancient of days where He received a Kingdom that shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
I don't want to make this long and difficult to digest, so I will continue later.
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This is far better than typical Amill theology stating we are in the Millennium now. However, the little season is just that, a little or short time which follows the actual Mill which is global peace and control ruled by Jesus and immortal saints and that hasn't happened. Even the GT has not happened though we could be close.
I do sincerely thank you for taking the time to watch the video and for sharing your point of view, many others would not have bothered. Your respectful and well thought out response is also greatly appreciated. I carefully read every word, and it is almost exactly what I thought it would be.
Thank you RWB.
Much love, much peace.
I wish I could. I truly do.
Unfortunately,
"History is a set of lies agreed upon"
Napolean
There is a good deal of scientific research suggesting that there may have been as much 700 years added to our present calendar.
The great wars of the last 400-500 years have wiped out much of the old world, records have been destroyed or hidden.
Those of us who have come to the conclusion that we are in fact living in the Little Season, are not of one accord as to when it began, many believe around the late 1700's, I lean towards the earlier dating.
I think that Christ began His reign immediately upon His return at the destruction of Jerusalem in about 70AD. But determining when it ended is a bit more difficult, did He reign for a full thousand years? Because the phrase 1000 years in scripture can also mean "a very long time, not a specific period of time. I lean towards the full thousand years.
Brother Andy's timeline is the 2nd video is the best one I've seen yet, and until better evidence presents itself, the one I'm sticking with.
How do you know it hasn't happened?
How would you know if it had?
The phrase "The Great Tribulation" is not in the bible, Christ spoke of great tribulation, the "The" was added later to support various other end time scenarios, its not in the text.
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satan has never been imprisoned, the nations remain deceived, no peaceful period with Jesus and the saints ruling has ever happened. The events before the Mill and the Mill change the world in ways that cannot be missed or ignored and those events have not happened.
So? He spoke of GT and described it and it clearly hasn't happened yet.
You seem quite certain about these things.
You do realize that many early church fathers held a much different view? And they were much closer to the events in question. Your interpretation of events is a rather modern one.
When Jesus plainly stated "Behold I come quickly" was He just pulling our leg?
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This is false. The early church was all Premill under an older name. Amill did not rise until between the 3rd and 4th centuries and came out of the RCC.
40 years isn't a short time to humans so your point is moot.
I don't want to embarrass you,
but do you know when Jesus said "Behold I come quickly"?
Who He was speaking to?
You don't sound very well versed on this topic. But you have very strong opinions.
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Revelation 22:12-20
King James Version
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Have you considered when Christ comes a second time that it is not a slow second coming?
Paul tells us the world of the wicked experience a 'sudden' destruction and they shall not escape
Jesus describes His return as coming like a thief, at a time when you do not expect. Watch and be ready for His return.
It is not like Christ delays His return, when God sends Him a second time, He makes a sudden appearance, at the speed of light.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 21:34-36 - New King James Version
The Importance of Watching - “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray...
The Importance of Watching
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [a]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [b]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”Amil simply says the 1000 years are symbolic of a long time of the saints ruling with Christ in the heavens where He is seated now at the right hand of the Father, and not on this earth.
And such a concept is supported by many verses.
When Christ returns is a 'sudden destruction'
When Christ returns is the resurrection
When Christ returns is the Day of Judgment.
When Christ returns is the Last Day
When Christ returns heaven and earth pass away
When Christ returns all the evil is destroyed and cast into the eternal fires
All of that is strongly verse supported
And such a concept is supported by many verses.
When Christ returns is a 'sudden destruction'
When Christ returns is the resurrection
When Christ returns is the Day of Judgment.
When Christ returns is the Last Day
When Christ returns heaven and earth pass away
When Christ returns all the evil is destroyed and cast into the eternal fires
All of that is strongly verse supported
This thread is not about a future return of Christ. We are discussing here the statements made by Christ and His Apostles that His return was imminent, and the likelihood that His imminent return already took place in 70AD.Revelation 22:12-20
King James Version
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Have you considered when Christ comes a second time that it is not a slow second coming?
Paul tells us the world of the wicked experience a 'sudden' destruction and they shall not escape
Jesus describes His return as coming like a thief, at a time when you do not expect. Watch and be ready for His return.
It is not like Christ delays His return, when God sends Him a second time, He makes a sudden appearance, at the speed of light.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 21:34-36 - New King James Version
The Importance of Watching - “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray...www.biblegateway.com
The Importance of Watching
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [a]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [b]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
If you are a dispensationalist, futurist, or especially an amillennialist, there are many other threads where you can discuss your ideas, I'm quite familiar with your eschatology and have no interest in debate. Obviously, I cannot prevent you from attempting to hijack this thread, but I respectfully request that you choose not to do so.
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Your welcome Archie. I wonder if the doctrine of Preterism would exist if not for outside historical record written especially by the unbelieving Jewish Historian Josephus?
It is my intention to reply to other verses the Preterit uses to inform their doctrine after Church this afternoon. One of the things I really want to address is "this generation."
Much love, and peace to you as well.
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