A Little Season

[WPM]

Ah - so you think you have me on that = no chance!

The answer to your question is in the Gospel.

Too late! I have.

This is another reason (of many) to reject Premil. It is unbiblical! That is why Premils duck around simple questions.

 

[WPM]

You do not take Christ at His word.
And that's your issue. Your problem isn't with me, its with Christ.

Christ plainly and repeatedly told His first century followers that He would return quickly. You don't believe Him. What does 40 years, or 4000 years have to do with anything? Christ either returned as He said He would, or His words cannot be trusted. What other option is there? Just because you believe that 2000 years have passed and He still has not returned changes absolutely nothing. Everything still comes back to one simple question.
Do you trust Christ and can you take Him at His word? Or must you explain away His clear speech, because it does not match your experience?

1. When did/does the old covenant end?
2. When did/does the new covenant begin?
3. When did/does "the last days" begin?
4. When will "the last days" finish?
5. When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
6. What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

 

[TribulationSigns]

It seems I'm just wasting my time. I initially responded because I thought you had recently become indoctrinated by the doctrine of Preterism. It seems I was mistaken, because you don't bother to address the points raised that refute the opinion that Christ says His second and only coming again would be quick or soon meaning 30 years from the time He spoke. That tells me your real interest is trying to convince others the doctrine of Preterits is truth therefore we should believe what you can only allege but cannot biblically prove. Thanks for the discussion.

AGREED!

 

[David in NJ]

Too late! I have.

This is another reason (of many) to reject Premil. It is unbiblical! That is why Premils duck around simple questions.

ha-ha

like i said = NO CHANCE

 

[WPM]

ha-ha

like i said = NO CHANCE

Every angle you look at Premillennialism, it does not add up. How can you have "time" after time shall be no more? Hello! It is ridiculous. It is fanciful. It is false doctrine.

 

[Archie]

According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.

Preterism is divided into two types: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. This article will confine the discussion to full preterism (or hyper-preterism, as some call it).

Preterism denies the future prophetic quality of the book of Revelation. The preterist movement essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in AD 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem. Preterism teaches that every event normally associated with the end times—Christ’s second coming, the tribulation, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment—has already happened. (In the case of the final judgment, it still is in the process of being fulfilled.) Jesus’ return to earth was a “spiritual” return, not a physical one.

Preterism teaches that the Law was fulfilled in AD 70 and God’s covenant with Israel was ended. The “new heavens and new earth” spoken of in Revelation 21:1 is, to the preterist, a description of the world under the New Covenant. Just as a Christian is made a “new creation” (2 Corinthians 5:17), so the world under the New Covenant is a “new earth.” This aspect of preterism can easily lead to a belief in replacement theology.

Preterists usually point to a passage in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse to bolster their argument. After Jesus describes some of the end-times happenings, He says, “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened” (Matthew 24:34). The preterist takes this to mean that everything Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 had to have occurred within one generation of His speaking—the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was therefore “Judgment Day.”

The problems with preterism are many. For one thing, God’s covenant with Israel is everlasting (Jeremiah 31:35–37), and there will be a future restoration of Israel (Isaiah 11:12). The apostle Paul warned against those who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, teach falsely “that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some” (2 Timothy 2:17–18). And Jesus’ mention of “this generation” should be taken to mean the generation that is alive to see the beginning of the events described in Matthew 24.

Eschatology is a complex subject, and the Bible’s use of apocalyptic imagery to relate many prophecies has led to a variety of interpretations of end-time events. There is room for some disagreement within Christianity regarding these things. However, full preterism has some serious flaws in that it denies the physical reality of Christ’s second coming and downplays the dreadful nature of the tribulation by restricting that event to the fall of Jerusalem.

What is the preterist view of the end times? | GotQuestions.org

What is the preterist view of the end times? Did all (or most) of the prophecy in the New Testament come to fulfillment in A.D. 70?

www.gotquestions.org

I liken the doctrine to this here, that Paul warned about.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 2 - New King James Version

Be Strong in Grace - You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ...

www.biblegateway.com

14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to [d]strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and [e]idle babblings, for they will [f]increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of [g]Christ depart from iniquity.”

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, [h]sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

I deleted my comment, not because it wasn't true, but because I mistook you for a dispensationalist, and I cannot think of a worse accusation.
My sincere apologies.

 

[WPM]

And Dispensationalism has replaced Christ with Israel, the Gospel of the Kingdom with a doctrine of demons, the worship of Holy God with the worship of an Antichrist Zionist construct, the Temple of God with the Synagogue of Satan, and the Lamb of God with a red heifer.

Take it somewhere else neighbor.

He is not Dispie bro. He is Amil. I think it would be wise to tone it down a bit. I know we have a lot more that unites us.

 

[David in NJ]

Every angle you look at Premillennialism, it does not add up. How can you have "time" after time shall be no more? Hello! It is ridiculous. It is fanciful. It is false doctrine.

Like i said before: i do not follow any denomination.

i only found out about "premillennialism" a few years ago.
Nothing for me to jump up and down about.

i follow the Way the Truth and the Life

The LORD Says = "If you love ME keep MY commandments"

 

[Archie]

1. When did/does the old covenant end?
2. When did/does the new covenant begin?
3. When did/does "the last days" begin?
4. When will "the last days" finish?
5. When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
6. What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

By no means will I pretend to have all the answers to these or any of the other thousand fold questions that Christ Himself will answer for us when we see Him face to face.
But I'm glad you're here participating in the discussion,
and will do me best.
1. At calvary, " it is finished"
2. At the last supper, "this cup is the new covenant in My blood"
3. With the ministry of John Baptist
"But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come"
4. It is my current opinion that the last days ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of Christ's Kingdom
5. Depending upon what the last day is, whether its the destruction of Jerusalem and the start of the millennial reign or the last day when Christ returns to toss Satan into the lake of fire, where interestingly enough, the beast and the false prophet are already there waiting for him. Which is no minor detail.
6 Again, depends on your definition, I'll go with Christ destroying His enemies at the battle with Gog and Magog

 

[Archie]

He is not Dispie bro. He is Amil. I think it would be wise to tone it down a bit. I know we have a lot more that unites us.

I'm sorry, I find it difficult to tell them apart.

And thank you for the kind rebuke my brother David is supposed to be holding me accountable, he must be sleeping on the job. But that's no excuse.

 

[rvmb]

I'm sorry, I find it difficult to tell them apart. I'll surely apologize to him when he comes back in, hard to think of a worse thing to be falsely labelled.

And thank you, my brother David is supposed to be holding me accountable, but he must be sleeping on the job.

""I'm sorry, I find it difficult to tell them apart""
That happens when believers fail to realize who is teaching what to who.
eg Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11 to 1 Thess 4:16-17, 1 Cor 15:51-52 is under the Ministry of the Rom 11:13 Apostle, Rom 15:16 Minister - Paul

 

[TribulationSigns]

1. When did/does the old covenant end?
2. When did/does the new covenant begin?
3. When did/does "the last days" begin?
4. When will "the last days" finish?
5. When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
6. What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

1. At calvary, " it is finished"

Good.

2. At the last supper, "this cup is the new covenant in My blood"

Christ's blood is indeed the New Covenant. But the covenant wasn't confirmed until Christ went to the Cross to die FIRST.

Heb 9:14-17
(14) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Christ offered His disciples the wine—symbolizing His blood—as a memorial of Him. However, this symbol had no covenantal power while Christ was still alive. A covenant is not ratified until the death of the one who establishes it. Therefore, Christ had to die in order for the New Covenant to be confirmed and established.

Because of this, the New Covenant did not begin until Calvary, at the moment His death brought the Old Testament covenant to its end. With the Old Covenant concluded and the New Covenant inaugurated, the 70th week was set in motion.

Nothing to do with 70 A.D.

3. With the ministry of John Baptist
"But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come"

No. The pouring out of the Holy Spirit is not some new method of salvation, what it illustrates is that rather than only primarily to Israel, God's Spirit of salvation is going out to evangelize all peoples, tongues and nations. That is "specifically" why when it was poured out at Pentecost, all the people there from different nations heard God's word in their own language. This signifies that the pouring out of the Spirit upon all peoples was a prophesied "sign" of the "last days" evangelizing of the whole world - from Pentecost to the Second Coming. These are the last days, Christ did put away sin in the last days. This is the end of the age and has been since Christ went to the cross. This is the last dispensation, and has been since Christ went to the cross. All these things agree perfectly with Scripture. But to call the end of the world (aion) the harvest time when the wheat are gathered in barns and the tares burned, 70 A.D., is blatantly unbiblical. Scripture is clear. There are two resurrections, the first in Christ. And the second in the end of the world when Christ returns. Neither resurrection was in 70 A.D.

Acts 2:17

• "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

And this prophesy faithfully came to pass that day, that whosoever called on the name of the Lord, not only from Israel, but from the whole world, shall be saved. That is the illustration of the "sign" of Pentecost as well as the tongues (languages) of fire. These passages in Acts informs us that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit was a sign of the last days. A notation that man has entered the time of the end of the world. The millennial generation of Christ! God's Spirit poured out is the sign and seal of the inheritance going out to the whole world, that whosoever are chosen of God to believe, no matter what nation they may be of, will receive. And sometimes in the Last Day near the Second Coming is when the New Testament congregation suffers apostasy:

2nd Timothy 3:1-5

• "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
• For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
• Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
• Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
• Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Again, nothing to do with 70 A.D.

4. It is my current opinion that the last days ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of Christ's Kingdom

No the end of the Last Day is the Second Coming of Christ.

Again, nothing to do with 70 A.D.

5. Depending upon what the last day is, whether its the destruction of Jerusalem and the start of the millennial reign or the last day when Christ returns to toss Satan into the lake of fire, where interestingly enough, the beast and the false prophet are already there waiting for him. Which is no minor detail.

Nope. The last days has nothing to do with 70 A.D. nor the start of the millennial kingdom. It is Christ's Second Coming at the last trump, on the last day.

6 Again, depends on your definition, I'll go with Christ destroying His enemies at the battle with Gog and Magog

Do you even know who is Gog and Magog, the enemies of Christ, exactly? Who are they? And which Israel will they attack.

 

[David in NJ]

I'm sorry, I find it difficult to tell them apart.

And thank you for the kind rebuke my brother David is supposed to be holding me accountable, he must be sleeping on the job. But that's no excuse.

Today is my sisters birthday = she is older then me and i am 63.
She lives 14 hours away, and she is with her husband who is in the hospital in critical condition.

So we spent time together on the phone sharing hope, praying and crying and praying and encouraging each other, and crying some more but gave God the Glory for His Great Love and Mercy upon us.

That is in addition to attending to my wife and my two sons who also need prayer as they are very ill as well.

As such i have not watched the videos you provided AND barely read posts on here except for a few.
@WPM and i know each other.

Wanting to share but also need more time on your subject as stated above.

One thing i will say is that @ewq1938 is a trusted Brother in Christ and i also appreciate @Scott Downey who i have interchanged with in the past.

Member @rwb also has been very polite in the one post i read - i like @rwb and we do not agree on all things as well

In Post #32 i gave to you my brief but a must-needed Scripture/Truth that we all must bow our knee to in obedience to CHRIST.

SHALOM

 

[WPM]

By no means will I pretend to have all the answers to these or any of the other thousand fold questions that Christ Himself will answer for us when we see Him face to face.
But I'm glad you're here participating in the discussion,
and will do me best.
1. At calvary, " it is finished"
2. At the last supper, "this cup is the new covenant in My blood"
3. With the ministry of John Baptist
"But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come"
4. It is my current opinion that the last days ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of Christ's Kingdom
5. Depending upon what the last day is, whether its the destruction of Jerusalem and the start of the millennial reign or the last day when Christ returns to toss Satan into the lake of fire, where interestingly enough, the beast and the false prophet are already there waiting for him. Which is no minor detail.
6 Again, depends on your definition, I'll go with Christ destroying His enemies at the battle with Gog and Magog

Ok, thanks. So we are in agreement on these apart from No. 4. Give me Scripture that teaches that the last days "ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of Christ's Kingdom"? Where do you find Scripture that teaches that "the destruction of Jerusalem" ushered in "the beginning of Christ's Kingdom"?

 

[David in NJ]

I'm sorry, I find it difficult to tell them apart.

And thank you for the kind rebuke my brother David is supposed to be holding me accountable, he must be sleeping on the job. But that's no excuse.

In addition to that which i stated in post #73 i forget to mention that my day included visiting with a friend who had cancer surgery earlier this year and the good news is that he is doing great!

i like a good laugh as it helps me unwind and @WPM provided that for me - to which i say thank you

Hopefully tomorrow i get to watch the videos, BUT i may not be able depending on all that is on my plate.

Being the hockey player that i am, growing up on hockey skates, i always have to remind myself of this = 1 Cor 13:4-7

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

i will confess that i have yet to be as perfect as this scripture calls us to and i have failed many times!!!

 

[David in NJ]

Every angle you look at Premillennialism, it does not add up. How can you have "time" after time shall be no more? Hello! It is ridiculous. It is fanciful. It is false doctrine.

i follow JESUS and His commandments = Matthew 4:4
Therefore = amil has NO CHANCE

 

[WPM]

Like i said before: i do not follow any denomination.

i only found out about "premillennialism" a few years ago.
Nothing for me to jump up and down about.

i follow the Way the Truth and the Life

The LORD Says = "If you love ME keep MY commandments"

I was actually asking you a simple question about "the last day" and you got all defensive. That was your choice. I was actually making a valid point - if we want to take Scripture literal.

 

[WPM]

i follow JESUS and His commandments = Matthew 4:4
Therefore = amil has NO CHANCE

LOL. Yaa-dee-dah-dee-dah.

That just about sums up Premil submissions on here over this past few years: totally bereft of biblical substance.

 

[Archie]

Good.



Christ's blood is indeed the New Covenant. But the covenant wasn't confirmed until Christ went to the Cross to die FIRST.

Heb 9:14-17
(14) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Christ offered His disciples the wine—symbolizing His blood—as a memorial of Him. However, this symbol had no covenantal power while Christ was still alive. A covenant is not ratified until the death of the one who establishes it. Therefore, Christ had to die in order for the New Covenant to be confirmed and established.

Because of this, the New Covenant did not begin until Calvary, at the moment His death brought the Old Testament covenant to its end. With the Old Covenant concluded and the New Covenant inaugurated, the 70th week was set in motion.

Nothing to do with 70 A.D.



No. The pouring out of the Holy Spirit is not some new method of salvation, what it illustrates is that rather than only primarily to Israel, God's Spirit of salvation is going out to evangelize all peoples, tongues and nations. That is "specifically" why when it was poured out at Pentecost, all the people there from different nations heard God's word in their own language. This signifies that the pouring out of the Spirit upon all peoples was a prophesied "sign" of the "last days" evangelizing of the whole world - from Pentecost to the Second Coming. These are the last days, Christ did put away sin in the last days. This is the end of the age and has been since Christ went to the cross. This is the last dispensation, and has been since Christ went to the cross. All these things agree perfectly with Scripture. But to call the end of the world (aion) the harvest time when the wheat are gathered in barns and the tares burned, 70 A.D., is blatantly unbiblical. Scripture is clear. There are two resurrections, the first in Christ. And the second in the end of the world when Christ returns. Neither resurrection was in 70 A.D.

Acts 2:17

• "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

And this prophesy faithfully came to pass that day, that whosoever called on the name of the Lord, not only from Israel, but from the whole world, shall be saved. That is the illustration of the "sign" of Pentecost as well as the tongues (languages) of fire. These passages in Acts informs us that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit was a sign of the last days. A notation that man has entered the time of the end of the world. The millennial generation of Christ! God's Spirit poured out is the sign and seal of the inheritance going out to the whole world, that whosoever are chosen of God to believe, no matter what nation they may be of, will receive. And sometimes in the Last Day near the Second Coming is when the New Testament congregation suffers apostasy:

2nd Timothy 3:1-5

• "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
• For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
• Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
• Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
• Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Again, nothing to do with 70 A.D.



No the end of the Last Day is the Second Coming of Christ.

Again, nothing to do with 70 A.D.




Nope. The last days has nothing to do with 70 A.D. nor the start of the millennial kingdom. It is Christ's Second Coming at the last trump, on the last day.



Do you even know who is Gog and Magog, the enemies of Christ, exactly? Who are they? And which Israel will they attack.

I disagree on a few points, but I really don't see any usefulness in getting into it. So, thanks for your input and welcome to the thread.

 

[David in NJ]

I was actually asking you a simple question about "the last day" and you got all defensive. That was your choice. I was actually making a valid point - if we want to take Scripture literal.

SEE Post 73 and 75