A Moral Framework for Same Sex Unions?

[This Vale Of Tears]

It's a question I want to posit and I'm sure I'll get a lot of heat for it.

I have a very good and lifelong friend. She was my favorite teacher in Middle School and we still maintain a good relationship today, though she's retired now. She lives with her domestic partner close to where I live. Her family and ours do a lot of things together and she babysits our children from time to time.

I didn't know she was a lesbian when I was in school because she maintained a professional demeanor at all times, not flaunting her sexuality. And she is today as she always was, always modest when it comes to what to make public and what to keep private. She and her partner are Christians, part of a more liberal congregation, and they exhibit a deep piety and a strong sense of right and wrong.

She and her partner have been together for 30 years even though in this state they cannot be officially married. Their union is still distinguished by the fidelity and sacrificial love that any good marriage has. They believe strongly that they are following Jesus and that their love for each other is not condemned by a loving God. They aren't "angry liberal feminist lesbians" and they respect my belief that the Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered". They know my views on the Biblical passages in Exodus, Leviticus, and Romans but we maintain just a respectful disagreement on this.

My 5 and 10 year old sons absolutely adore them and love to visit. I've been scolded in the past about this, saying they will be harmed by exposure to immorality and I've struggled with the question of whether or not to forbid contact, which would effectively end a lifelong friendship. My wife, who's more liberal than I and she said "don't you dare" deprive our sons of such great friendships. And anyone who's married, knows that when certainty is at loggerheads with uncertainty, certainty prevails.

But now getting to my question, should Christians expect a moral framework for same sex unions even while maintaining that same sex unions are not the will of God for people's lives? My lesbian friends are a paragon of virtue, modesty, and conscience and certainly demonstrate that the floor hasn't dropped out for all manner of deviance, cruelty, and perversion just because a couple are gay and in a loving union. I just don't know that the all-or-nothing approach is an effective way to reach out to homosexuals, either same sex partnerships are abstained from completely or once indulged, the participants are written off to unbridled perversion and immorality.

What I am compelled by is the sincerity of their belief that they are within God's will. I've told them that I truly respect what they have built, a life together that, like any good family, is a platform for acts of love and charity toward their fellow man. And I honestly don't know how they'll be judged by God in the end but it's difficult for me to imagine they'll be condemned.

 

[Suhar]

Just because people with deprived minds sincerely believe something that is clearly wrong it does not mean you should do the same. Which part of "shell not inherit the kingdom of God" don't you understand?
Allowing your children to see them as normal is something you are going to have to explain to God some day. I would not want to be you.

 

[FHII]

My answer is yes. Homosexuality is a sin, but it's covered by grace. It's just a hot issue amongst Christians.

Did not James say that if you are guilty of one sin you are guilty of all (in a roundabout way)? So if you wear polyester, aren't you guilty of breaking the Law? I'm generalizing, but look deeper into the context.

If you own a home, you are required by the Law to have a battlement. Do you have one? The fact is that we can't keep the law and Paul even noted that the law was given just to offend and bring charge on us. (and no Markman.... I ain't going to give you scripture for that! It's in the NT so you find it yourself so you can ignore your own verses!)

God looks at the heart. There is so much talk about "love" but not when it talks about love of homosexuals....You hypocrits!

For me, the sin (and I did say SIN) of homosexuality is off the table. I won't address it until each and every one of you stop wearing mixed cloth. Why? Because I have verses that say if you are guilty of even the smallest sins you are guilty of them ALL! Do that, and I'll condemn homosexuals. But you can't..... Can you? So, if you wear polyester, HELLO, GAY GUY!

I thank God for Grace! My sins are COVERED!!!!

 

[marksman]

But now getting to my question, should Christians expect a moral framework for same sex unions even while maintaining that same sex unions are not the will of God for people's lives?

To answer your question, there is no such a thing as a moral framework for relationships that are outside of God’s will. The relationship itself is immoral so what they do within it is immoral. Being nice does not make it moral.

That does not mean you have to reject them, only the immorality of their relationship which means if they ask you your thoughts on the matter, you state what God says and intended for them. I have read of relationships similar to yours and at some stage one of them has realised that a same sex attraction is not sanctioned by God and has broken off the relationship.

Whilst I understand that you feel kindly towards them which in itself is not wrong, and knowing that all Christians usually struggle at some stage with sin/s, the sanctification process is there to enable us to overcome sin on a daily basis. Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 1:2; 1 Cor 6:11; 1 Thess 4:3; 2 Timothy 2:21; 1 Peter 1:2.

I don’t doubt that the temptation to sin is there for everyone, but with the grace of God we wrestle not against flesh and blood…..Ephesians 6:12, so we endeavour to overcome and not give in to the temptation bearing in mind that Jesus was tempted in all points just as we are.

To say that a same sex relationship is God’s will is a clear example of giving into sin, and a rationalisation of sin to make it sound OK. What one does in that relationship does not make it right/wrong. It is the relationship itself that is wrong.

It is no different to a heterosexual couple who shack up instead of getting married. They live lives as good as any married couple so they can say that God approves of their non-married relationship because they act like a married couple.

It is not what they do in the relationship that makes it right or wrong, it is the relationship itself that is wrong and nothing they do will make it right.

This applies to your friends. Nothing they do or not do in the relationship will make it right. As far as writing anyone off, if we did that with everyone who sinned, we would all be friendless as everyone has sinned and come short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and no one would have anything to do with us.

Jesus was accused of fraternising with tax collectors and sinners (Matt 9:11) and whilst he did not identify with their sin, he certainly did not reject them immediately.

I spent two years running a ministry for people who had an unwanted same sex attraction. The only condition we had was that they wanted to change. We did not insist they be celibate before we would allow them in. In church on Sunday evenings I was seen sat with a row of people with an unwanted same sex attraction. No one batted an eyelid.

Finally, one of the mantras of the homosexual agenda is that God approves of their (immoral) relationship and they twist and turn scripture to make it say what they want it to say but the fact is and that is what we have to deal with is that all sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is not approved by God (Genesis 2:24 and [SIZE=10pt]1Cor 6:9 "Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual ……")[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The important words here are…Don’t fool yourselves. Anyone who believes that same sex relationships are approved by God are fooling themselves. [/SIZE]

And one final thing, because these two women are not your usual feminist/lesbian types doesn’t make the situation any more acceptable to God.

 

[Pelaides]

I was taught in school that in america their is a seperation between church and state.Then how is it that they can pass laws forcing the church to do what is against their beliefs.

 

[Dodo_David]

I agree with Marksman.

The Bible speaks clearly about the matter. Sex between two people of the same gender is something that God is against.

In the case of Vale's lesbian friend, she appears to be judging the Bible's instruction about homosexual behavior according to her feelings, instead of judging her feelings according to the Bible's instructions about homosexual behavior.

This lesbian friend may feel that her sinful sexual relationship is blessed by God because she and her partner have not experienced any significant negative consequence of their sexual behavior. Yet the lack of a negative earthly consequence doesn't imply a blessing.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

My answer is yes. Homosexuality is a sin, but it's covered by grace. It's just a hot issue amongst Christians.

Did not James say that if you are guilty of one sin you are guilty of all (in a roundabout way)? So if you wear polyester, aren't you guilty of breaking the Law? I'm generalizing, but look deeper into the context.

If you own a home, you are required by the Law to have a battlement. Do you have one? The fact is that we can't keep the law and Paul even noted that the law was given just to offend and bring charge on us. (and no Markman.... I ain't going to give you scripture for that! It's in the NT so you find it yourself so you can ignore your own verses!)

God looks at the heart. There is so much talk about "love" but not when it talks about love of homosexuals....You hypocrits!

For me, the sin (and I did say SIN) of homosexuality is off the table. I won't address it until each and every one of you stop wearing mixed cloth. Why? Because I have verses that say if you are guilty of even the smallest sins you are guilty of them ALL! Do that, and I'll condemn homosexuals. But you can't..... Can you? So, if you wear polyester, HELLO, GAY GUY!

I thank God for Grace! My sins are COVERED!!!!

I like your take on this. I think the deeper question is what God values the most and from scripture, the top of that list is how we treat our fellow man. Certainly reading the gospels shows an emphasis on this and the issue of homosexuality bears not even a single mention. But even more important, you allude to an understanding of grace that I think is conspicuously absent in discussing homosexuality, that we all fall woefully short of a perfect standard and that one day we will all stand before a holy God and but for the shed blood of Jesus Christ we will stand guilty and condemned every one of us.

To answer your question, there is no such a thing as a moral framework for relationships that are outside of God’s will. The relationship itself is immoral so what they do within it is immoral. Being nice does not make it moral.

That does not mean you have to reject them, only the immorality of their relationship which means if they ask you your thoughts on the matter, you state what God says and intended for them. I have read of relationships similar to yours and at some stage one of them has realised that a same sex attraction is not sanctioned by God and has broken off the relationship.

Whilst I understand that you feel kindly towards them which in itself is not wrong, and knowing that all Christians usually struggle at some stage with sin/s, the sanctification process is there to enable us to overcome sin on a daily basis. Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 1:2; 1 Cor 6:11; 1 Thess 4:3; 2 Timothy 2:21; 1 Peter 1:2.

I don’t doubt that the temptation to sin is there for everyone, but with the grace of God we wrestle not against flesh and blood…..Ephesians 6:12, so we endeavour to overcome and not give in to the temptation bearing in mind that Jesus was tempted in all points just as we are.

To say that a same sex relationship is God’s will is a clear example of giving into sin, and a rationalisation of sin to make it sound OK. What one does in that relationship does not make it right/wrong. It is the relationship itself that is wrong.

It is no different to a heterosexual couple who shack up instead of getting married. They live lives as good as any married couple so they can say that God approves of their non-married relationship because they act like a married couple.

It is not what they do in the relationship that makes it right or wrong, it is the relationship itself that is wrong and nothing they do will make it right.

This applies to your friends. Nothing they do or not do in the relationship will make it right. As far as writing anyone off, if we did that with everyone who sinned, we would all be friendless as everyone has sinned and come short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and no one would have anything to do with us.

Jesus was accused of fraternising with tax collectors and sinners (Matt 9:11) and whilst he did not identify with their sin, he certainly did not reject them immediately.

I spent two years running a ministry for people who had an unwanted same sex attraction. The only condition we had was that they wanted to change. We did not insist they be celibate before we would allow them in. In church on Sunday evenings I was seen sat with a row of people with an unwanted same sex attraction. No one batted an eyelid.

Finally, one of the mantras of the homosexual agenda is that God approves of their (immoral) relationship and they twist and turn scripture to make it say what they want it to say but the fact is and that is what we have to deal with is that all sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is not approved by God (Genesis 2:24 and [SIZE=10pt]1Cor 6:9 "Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual ……")[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The important words here are…Don’t fool yourselves. Anyone who believes that same sex relationships are approved by God are fooling themselves. [/SIZE]

And one final thing, because these two women are not your usual feminist/lesbian types doesn’t make the situation any more acceptable to God.

I love this post because I see that you too are trying to find the balance so that in our zeal to reach the sinner we don't stray from righteousness or compromise truth. But what I question is whether the zeal to reach sinners is as prevalent as it should be. Notice that we talk about homosexuals a lot but rarely talk to them. I'm categorically excluding you from this reproof because you've endeavored through ministry to connect with homosexuals; clearly this doesn't apply to you. The lofty ideals we develop in abstract and broadcast in echo chambers are untried until they are applied in the real world with real people. There is a tempering effect when talking to people who are actually affected by same sex attraction and it becomes clear that they aren't cackling sodomites gleefully reveling in all manner of immorality until they meet their just remuneration. They are real people who struggle with the question of right and wrong and believe they are living their lives according to the dictates of their conscience.

It's been said here that same sex unions are outside of God's will, both by myself and another member and in a purely technical sense, that's right. But I might add the slight enhancement of suggesting that same sex unions are not God's best plan for our lives. When people commit crimes and spend 10 years in prison, they can come out pursuing God's will for their lives, but it won't be God's first plan for their lives but rather God's backup plan accomodating the loss suffered by the choices they made. God never intended for anyone to be gay. He created us male and female to find companionship and have offspring with the opposite sex. But sin entered the world and the innocent suffer from the affects of it. Children are born with birth defects, mental illnesses, and yes, even myopic sexual inclinations. Or it happens to them as children by sexual abuse. Either way, I think we agree that it's outside of Gods design and intention for us.

Here's the problem I see. Closeted homosexuals often marry and have a family because they believe it's the right and moral thing to do in spite of their true sexual longings. But those longings later assert themselves in a way that causes great grief. Men have secret male liasons in seedy places. Women divorce their husbands for a lesbian relationship. It's all clearly wrong. But if they are honest about their attraction and enter into same sex marriages or unions with no pretense or deceit, they are still wrong. What a vexing dilemma!

But it brings me back to God's backup plan. Though same sex unions were not his original intention, those in such unions who seek God I don't think are castigated. I think they are held to a moral standard even in a less than perfect situation; to be faithful to one another with sacrificial love and to love their fellow man. I think that people in this situation should be held to the same moral code that protects and prospers traditional families. I think that this is God's will for them in the context of Plan B.

 

[Dodo_David]

I like your take on this. I think the deeper question is what God values the most and from scripture, the top of that list is how we treat our fellow man. Certainly reading the gospels shows an emphasis on this and the issue of homosexuality bears not even a single mention. But even more important, you allude to an understanding of grace that I think is conspicuously absent in discussing homosexuality, that we all fall woefully short of a perfect standard and that one day we will all stand before a holy God and but for the shed blood of Jesus Christ we will stand guilty and condemned every one of us.

I love this post because I see that you too are trying to find the balance so that in our zeal to reach the sinner we don't stray from righteousness or compromise truth. But what I question is whether the zeal to reach sinners is as prevalent as it should be. Notice that we talk about homosexuals a lot but rarely talk to them. I'm categorically excluding you from this reproof because you've endeavored through ministry to connect with homosexuals; clearly this doesn't apply to you. The lofty ideals we develop in abstract and broadcast in echo chambers are untried until they are applied in the real world with real people. There is a tempering effect when talking to people who are actually affected by same sex attraction and it becomes clear that they aren't cackling sodomites gleefully reveling in all manner of immorality until they meet their just remuneration. They are real people who struggle with the question of right and wrong and believe they are living their lives according to the dictates of their conscience.

It's been said here that same sex unions are outside of God's will, both by myself and another member and in a purely technical sense, that's right. But I might add the slight enhancement of suggesting that same sex unions are not God's best plan for our lives. When people commit crimes and spend 10 years in prison, they can come out pursuing God's will for their lives, but it won't be God's first plan for their lives but rather God's backup plan accomodating the loss suffered by the choices they made. God never intended for anyone to be gay. He created us male and female to find companionship and have offspring with the opposite sex. But sin entered the world and the innocent suffer from the affects of it. Children are born with birth defects, mental illnesses, and yes, even myopic sexual inclinations. Or it happens to them as children by sexual abuse. Either way, I think we agree that it's outside of Gods design and intention for us.

Here's the problem I see. Closeted homosexuals often marry and have a family because they believe it's the right and moral thing to do in spite of their true sexual longings. But those longings later assert themselves in a way that causes great grief. Men have secret male liasons in seedy places. Women divorce their husbands for a lesbian relationship. It's all clearly wrong. But if they are honest about their attraction and enter into same sex marriages or unions with no pretense or deceit, they are still wrong. What a vexing dilemma!

But it brings me back to God's backup plan. Though same sex unions were not his original intention, those in such unions who seek God I don't think are castigated. I think they are held to a moral standard even in a less than perfect situation; to be faithful to one another with sacrificial love and to love their fellow man. I think that people in this situation should be held to the same moral code that protects and prospers traditional families. I think that this is God's will for them in the context of Plan B.

Vale, I do not see any biblical justification for what you are saying about same-gender sexual relationships.

It appears to me that you are trying to rationalize sinful behavior in an attempt to spare the feelings of those who engage in such behavior.

Since when are we to accept sin in order to spare the feelings of the sinner?

 

[Suhar]

It's been said here that same sex unions are outside of God's will, both by myself and another member and in a purely technical sense, that's right. But I might add the slight enhancement of suggesting that same sex unions are not God's best plan for our lives.

[SIZE=medium]This is what you get for being unequally yoked with friends of deprived mind. Their sin rubs off on you. While it is somewhat unlikely that you will become a lesbian they make you sin by doubting God and His crystal clear and strict prohibition of that lifestyle.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]It is a choice and a lifestyle. Nobody is “born that way”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I know for a fact that you will change your mind simply because God does not change His.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You can change your mind [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Now.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Later and pay heavy price for delay or..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Too late and pay ultimate price for that.[/SIZE]

 

[Rach1370]

Do we, as Christians, need to love homosexual couples? Absolutely. But do we accept them as members into the Church? No more than we do the thief who continues stealing, or the man who has a mistress or the young couple living together without the covenant of marriage. How can we welcome into our body what God has said is against his holy nature?

Now, I get that the Church is full of sinners, and that becoming a Christian doesn't make one perfect. But what necessitates becoming a Christian, is a new nature...one that shies away from sin. We're not clear of sin, but we recognise it is sin and with the Spirits help, we work to deny that sin and put it to death.

The problem with 'liberal' Churches allowing gay people (and by that I mean actively practising gays) to become members of a Church or worse, leaders within the Church, speaks of the very same sin that saw it all start in the garden. They think they know better than God. They are welcoming people who refuse to acknowledge God's thoughts and commands against that particular issue...they are embracing the practice and dismissing it as a sin, despite what the Bible says about it.

I know many yell "hypocrite" at this point...but they are missing a huge issue...one that needs to be at the heart of any Christians walk...it's beginning and every day after. Repentance. The walk of a true Christian is one of repentance. We walk, we stumble, we grieve over that stumble and repent of it and then joyfully get up again with the Spirits guidance.

The question that nees to be addressed, I think, is: If we recieve salvation when we repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness....then are people living in sin, refusing to accept it is sin and therefore refusing to repent of it and ask for forgiveness over it...do they receive salvation?

 

[Dodo_David]

The question that needs to be addressed, I think, is: If we receive salvation when we repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness....then are people living in sin, refusing to accept it is sin and therefore refusing to repent of it and ask for forgiveness over it...do they receive salvation?

In other words, can a person with a seared conscience (regarding sexual sin) keep salvation if that person turned to Jesus prior to having a seared conscience?

 

[Selene]

The question that nees to be addressed, I think, is: If we recieve salvation when we repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness....then are people living in sin, refusing to accept it is sin and therefore refusing to repent of it and ask for forgiveness over it...do they receive salvation?

I agree with you that the homosexual couple is no different than two single heterosexuals cohabiting together. They both commit the sin of fornication. If two single heterosexuals are living in sin, and both ask for forgiveness because they understood that what they are doing is a sin, their sin can be forgiven. But after confession, they go back and continue to live together, that is not a true repentance. Repentance is making the effort to turn away from the sin. Yet, they continue to live in sin.... not because they want to live in sin, but because of their weakness of the flesh. It takes the grace of God to strengthen them so they can do the right thing.

This scenerio is different from a couple who don't consider cohabitation a sin. This couple would not ask forgiveness but rationalize that God accepts as they are, and they would use the excuse that God loves all sinners and died for them. While it is true that God loves all sinners and died for all sinners, this does not change the fact that God does not like sin (the behavior) and has always called us to be holy. God, who knows the hearts of all men, will be the one to judge.

 

[Rach1370]

In other words, can a person with a seared conscience (regarding sexual sin) keep salvation if that person turned to Jesus prior to having a seared conscience?

I'm not quite sure I follow you...could you rephrase for the comprehensionally challenged?? ;)

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I agree with you that the homosexual couple is no different than two single heterosexuals cohabiting together. They both commit the sin of fornication. If two single heterosexuals are living in sin, and both ask for forgiveness because they understood that what they are doing is a sin, their sin can be forgiven. But after confession, they go back and continue to live together, that is not a true repentance. Repentance is making the effort to turn away from the sin. Yet, they continue to live in sin.... not because they want to live in sin, but because of their weakness of the flesh. It takes the grace of God to strengthen them so they can do the right thing.

This scenerio is different from a couple who don't consider cohabitation a sin. This couple would not ask forgiveness but rationalize that God accepts as they are, and they would use the excuse that God loves all sinners and died for them. While it is true that God loves all sinners and died for all sinners, this does not change the fact that God does not like sin (the behavior) and has always called us to be holy. God, who knows the hearts of all men, will be the one to judge.

And I think you've gotten down to the nub of the matter, what individual perceptions are of whether or not their relationship is sin. Christian beliefs run the gambit of fundamentalists who believe that every ordinance of scripture applies today as it did when it was given (legalism) to more liberal revisionists who look to the main emphasis of the Bible (love thy neighbor) as an overriding principle that supersede the smaller details of the law.

But when we speak of individual perceptions, it can't be ignored that homosexual couples don't see their love as wrong. I accurately described the relationship of my friends as committed and sacrificial, in no way failing to measure up to ideal heterosexual marriages. Visions, angels, and even signs in the sky couldn't convince them in a thousand years that what they have together is immoral. If invincible ignorance is a sure path to eternal perdition, then how many of us can be truly certain we will see heaven? Which is why your advice is sage, that God will be the one to judge.

My concern, leaving all else to the domain of God's jurisprudence, is how we relate to homosexuals here on earth, particularly those who consider themselves Christian or are interested in joining the faith. Especially in light of the Pope's recent comments, we ought to consider carefully what we do to repel those that Jesus wants to reach. And the all-or-nothing approach has been nothing but a granite wall with a sign saying "Not Welcome" to those who fail to measure up to our standards. People get angry at the Pope for noting that we are making homosexuals feel unwelcome, but he's right. We are. Perhaps we should take a page out of Billy Graham's gospel message and annunciate clearly that God wants to accept us just as we are.

Do we, as Christians, need to love homosexual couples? Absolutely. But do we accept them as members into the Church? No more than we do the thief who continues stealing, or the man who has a mistress or the young couple living together without the covenant of marriage. How can we welcome into our body what God has said is against his holy nature?

Now, I get that the Church is full of sinners, and that becoming a Christian doesn't make one perfect. But what necessitates becoming a Christian, is a new nature...one that shies away from sin. We're not clear of sin, but we recognise it is sin and with the Spirits help, we work to deny that sin and put it to death.

The problem with 'liberal' Churches allowing gay people (and by that I mean actively practising gays) to become members of a Church or worse, leaders within the Church, speaks of the very same sin that saw it all start in the garden. They think they know better than God. They are welcoming people who refuse to acknowledge God's thoughts and commands against that particular issue...they are embracing the practice and dismissing it as a sin, despite what the Bible says about it.

I know many yell "hypocrite" at this point...but they are missing a huge issue...one that needs to be at the heart of any Christians walk...it's beginning and every day after. Repentance. The walk of a true Christian is one of repentance. We walk, we stumble, we grieve over that stumble and repent of it and then joyfully get up again with the Spirits guidance.

The question that nees to be addressed, I think, is: If we recieve salvation when we repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness....then are people living in sin, refusing to accept it is sin and therefore refusing to repent of it and ask for forgiveness over it...do they receive salvation?

I think that what Selene said is important, that God knows our hearts and will be the one to judge. To speculate on such things distracts us from what we do with what we know here on earth. On the question of how we treat homosexuals it should be pointed out that liberal congregations might have come about as a result of homosexuals being repulsed by a Christian culture that demands a high standard of moral conduct before coming to God. Homosexuals like all sinners have a God-shaped hole in their heart and want to come to know God, but being made to feel unwelcome in traditional churches, they came up with churches of their own according to Protestant tradition whereby disagreement becomes license to start your own church.

I was very conservative before I met and married my wife who considers herself a moderate but is definitely far more to the left than I. She hasn't changed my beliefs but rather tempered them with different viewpoints I had never considered. It's like I was saying before that our lofty ideals are moderated when applied to practical situations and people's lives, particularly people we care about. Though my lesbian friend was my favorite teacher in school, we might not have been friends today if it weren't for the influence of my wife; if I had been allowed to maintain intransigent abstracts instead of true understanding of how people are and why they believe as they do. So all of this isn't coming from a Seminary Bible college, it's coming from a man who has cherished friends who happen to be Lesbian and feels enriched for having known them.

Vale, I do not see any biblical justification for what you are saying about same-gender sexual relationships.

It appears to me that you are trying to rationalize sinful behavior in an attempt to spare the feelings of those who engage in such behavior.

Since when are we to accept sin in order to spare the feelings of the sinner?

I'm not rationalizing sinful behavior nor accepting sin. I'm making the argument that God came to save sinners and we shouldn't be pushing them away. Reaching out to sinners doesn't require us to compromise the truth and I stated from the beginning that I believe the Catholic Church teaching that homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered" which seems to have gotten lost in a frenzy to re-cast me as a liberal who winks at sin and glosses over the commandments of God we are called to observe so that we can live holy lives. This isn't about me, it's about homosexuals that we talk about but rarely talk to. It's not difficult to divine that many of the respondents on this thread fall neatly into this category, having all sorts of things to say about homosexuals, but not having homosexual friends because, let's face it, homosexuals don't want friends who judge them any more than heterosexuals.

Because when we speak about immorality, we tend to seize upon easy targets such as same sex partnerships to the expense of others. Let's say that these unions really are wrong as a premise, but then note that the two entered into this relationship without deceit or pretense. Let's also note that they love each other physically emotionally and sexually and are compatible on every level. Then compare this to men who deny their latent homosexuality, marry a woman and have children, but then succumb to their homosexual feelings later and betray that family through secret liaisons with strange men. The marriage is built on deceit and ultimate betrayal is inevitable. We have a Senator right here in Idaho, Larry Craig, who is an example of this, seeking out sexual encounters with men in airport restrooms until he was caught by police. Real scuzzy behavior that is a result in living a lie whereas same sex couples live in the truth.

All this to say that if we're jumping on immorality here, there's plenty of it to go around before we get to the immorality of homosexuals.

 

[justaname]

Vale,

I see your genuine concern as encouraging. I have wrestled with this in my own mind at times. I have considered this first foundation, love your neighbor as yourself. Being that we all deal with sin at some certain level, how would we judge ourselves in any given case? (Matthew 7:2)

Now in every case we must not bend on the concept of moral uprightness in light of a holy God. With this stated we must not yield in our efforts to love in this fallen existence. If it is we are to love our enemies, how much less should we love those who love Christ or at least show interest in pursuing the truth?

Now the beginning of difficulty is where sin hinders the relation between believers whereas a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Lets look to the case with the Corinthians where Paul had to deal with the man that was sleeping with his father's wife. (1 Corinthians 5:5) In this case judgement was enacted, and sin was not tolerated. Perhaps this man saw nothing wrong with his love arrangement, yet clearly sin was dealt with swiftly. Ignorance could not be pleaded. This is where we must be firm, as you have been, in presenting our biblical position on homosexuality and it being a sin also described as an abomination punishable by death for the Israelites. (Leviticus 18:22) Now this extreme judgment and punishment I would consider non valid in our current age, yet in our dispensation, while we are under grace, God still considers homosexuality a sin. (Romans 1:25-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:9-10, Revelation 21:8, 22:15)

I can not and will not be one who claims any form of judgment against these individuals, for as already noted there is but one Judge, yet I also must stand firm on what I believe to be sound biblical instruction.

So then the conundrum rests on how do we extend the hand of fellowship without compromising our faith and or convictions? Shall we walk hand in hand singing with unrepentant ax murders? How about abortion nurses that are just doing their job? What about the drug addict that refuses to stop doing heroin or the pornography addict that reconciles in their own mind they are not sinning? What about the prideful business owner or the arrogant school teacher? How about the obese individual or the condescending pew warmer?

If one believes they are without sin, they simply have not looked honestly in their life. With sins of omission, hidden faults, presumptuous sins such as pride, vanity, gluttony, and so on, it is virtually impossible to know the depths of the heart and the evil therein. With this definition convicting every believer we continually walk hand in hand singing with totally depraved, evil people. Again a little leaven leavens the whole lump. There is only One who is good, that is God alone.

I have yet to draw any line in the sand for as the Father I do not desire that any should perish. I will continue to love...

 

[Suhar]

But when we speak of individual perceptions, it can't be ignored that homosexual couples don't see their love as wrong.

[SIZE=medium]They may not see that their love as wrong but God clearly does. Loving God is more important then any other love. One cannot even claim to love God while breaking His commandments.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Love is an emotion but it is not based on feeling, it is based on choice. Just like you choose to love God with “agape” kind of love you can choose to love people with “philia” or “eros” kinds of love.[/SIZE]

 

[Dodo_David]

And I think you've gotten down to the nub of the matter, what individual perceptions are of whether or not their relationship is sin. Christian beliefs run the gambit of fundamentalists who believe that every ordinance of scripture applies today as it did when it was given (legalism) to more liberal revisionists who look to the main emphasis of the Bible (love thy neighbor) as an overriding principle that supersede the smaller details of the law.

But when we speak of individual perceptions, it can't be ignored that homosexual couples don't see their love as wrong. I accurately described the relationship of my friends as committed and sacrificial, in no way failing to measure up to ideal heterosexual marriages. Visions, angels, and even signs in the sky couldn't convince them in a thousand years that what they have together is immoral. If invincible ignorance is a sure path to eternal perdition, then how many of us can be truly certain we will see heaven? Which is why your advice is sage, that God will be the one to judge.

My concern, leaving all else to the domain of God's jurisprudence, is how we relate to homosexuals here on earth, particularly those who consider themselves Christian or are interested in joining the faith. Especially in light of the Pope's recent comments, we ought to consider carefully what we do to repel those that Jesus wants to reach. And the all-or-nothing approach has been nothing but a granite wall with a sign saying "Not Welcome" to those who fail to measure up to our standards. People get angry at the Pope for noting that we are making homosexuals feel unwelcome, but he's right. We are. Perhaps we should take a page out of Billy Graham's gospel message and annunciate clearly that God wants to accept us just as we are.

I think that what Selene said is important, that God knows our hearts and will be the one to judge. To speculate on such things distracts us from what we do with what we know here on earth. On the question of how we treat homosexuals it should be pointed out that liberal congregations might have come about as a result of homosexuals being repulsed by a Christian culture that demands a high standard of moral conduct before coming to God. Homosexuals like all sinners have a God-shaped hole in their heart and want to come to know God, but being made to feel unwelcome in traditional churches, they came up with churches of their own according to Protestant tradition whereby disagreement becomes license to start your own church.

I was very conservative before I met and married my wife who considers herself a moderate but is definitely far more to the left than I. She hasn't changed my beliefs but rather tempered them with different viewpoints I had never considered. It's like I was saying before that our lofty ideals are moderated when applied to practical situations and people's lives, particularly people we care about. Though my lesbian friend was my favorite teacher in school, we might not have been friends today if it weren't for the influence of my wife; if I had been allowed to maintain intransigent abstracts instead of true understanding of how people are and why they believe as they do. So all of this isn't coming from a Seminary Bible college, it's coming from a man who has cherished friends who happen to be Lesbian and feels enriched for having known them.

I'm not rationalizing sinful behavior nor accepting sin. I'm making the argument that God came to save sinners and we shouldn't be pushing them away. Reaching out to sinners doesn't require us to compromise the truth and I stated from the beginning that I believe the Catholic Church teaching that homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered" which seems to have gotten lost in a frenzy to re-cast me as a liberal who winks at sin and glosses over the commandments of God we are called to observe so that we can live holy lives. This isn't about me, it's about homosexuals that we talk about but rarely talk to. It's not difficult to divine that many of the respondents on this thread fall neatly into this category, having all sorts of things to say about homosexuals, but not having homosexual friends because, let's face it, homosexuals don't want friends who judge them any more than heterosexuals.

Because when we speak about immorality, we tend to seize upon easy targets such as same sex partnerships to the expense of others. Let's say that these unions really are wrong as a premise, but then note that the two entered into this relationship without deceit or pretense. Let's also note that they love each other physically emotionally and sexually and are compatible on every level. Then compare this to men who deny their latent homosexuality, marry a woman and have children, but then succumb to their homosexual feelings later and betray that family through secret liaisons with strange men. The marriage is built on deceit and ultimate betrayal is inevitable. We have a Senator right here in Idaho, Larry Craig, who is an example of this, seeking out sexual encounters with men in airport restrooms until he was caught by police. Real scuzzy behavior that is a result in living a lie whereas same sex couples live in the truth.

All this to say that if we're jumping on immorality here, there's plenty of it to go around before we get to the immorality of homosexuals.

Vale, you and I are in agreement on much of what you say. Here is an excerpt from my commentary "Homosexuality and the Church":

Should we condemn same-gender sexual behavior as being sinful?

Answer: Only if we are willing to condemn our own sinful behaviors. A person does not have to engage in same-gender sexual behavior in order to do something worthy of condemnation. We need to remember the words of the Apostle James: “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it” (James 2:10).

Are we to say that homosexuals should receive the same humane treatment given to heterosexuals?

Answer: Yes. We do not have to accept same-gender sexual behavior in order to treat homosexuals humanely.

Can a person have homosexual feelings and still be a Christian?

Answer: Yes, because homosexuality is not the unpardonable sin.

Now, how are we to respond to Christians who give in to their flesh and engage in same-gender sexual behavior?

Answer: The same way that we would respond to Christians who engage in any sexual behavior that is outside of God's revealed will.

Lest you think I am soft in regards to sexual sin, I also say the following:

On the other hand, it would be an error to tell Christians that God accepts same-gender sexual behavior, because the New Testament clearly teaches the opposite. Although we are supposed to love homosexuals, we are also supposed to remain true to what the Bible teaches.

... and ...

The issue of homosexuality is perhaps the most difficult issue for the universal Church to deal with because it pertains to one of the most basic of human desires. Yet, the Church cannot push the issue aside; nor can the Church simply tell homosexuals whatever will tickle their ears.

What I often see is this:

Some Christians lack tack, diplomacy and gentleness when dealing with people with homosexual feelings.

Meanwhile, some other Christians are wimpy in the way that they deal with the issue of homosexuality. Instead of acknowledging that same-gender sexual relationships are sinful, they say whatever tickles the ears of homosexuals in attempt to protect the feelings of homosexuals.

While He walked on the Earth, the Lord Jesus was tactful, diplomatic and gentle with people who acknowledged their sinfulness. Yet, he was not wimpy. He did not say things to tickle ears.

We mere mortals have a bad habit of trying to please other people so that we won't be judged harshly by those people.
Such is the case when Christians refuse to acknowledge what the Bible says is sin.

Loving people the way that Jesus demands doesn't require that we engage in people-pleasing behavior.

 

[teamventure]

great insight dododavid, that's a reference to the type of balance i try to obtain in dealing with homosexuals.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I appreciate all the responses I'm getting because I've privately wrestled with the notion that my lesbian friends may be living in unrepentant sin and as such be condemned in eternity. I've been terrified at the anticipation of them crying out to me, "Why didn't you warn us?" As I said, one of them is a woman I've known my whole life because she was once my teacher in school, so to say she and her partner are dear to me is a statement I can't do justice to in this post.

A lot of the responses seem to fall naturally into a well worn rut of reiterating the issue of homosexuality as a sin and the importance of not compromising the truth in our passion to reach people for Christ. I've been reminded that real love is not condoning sin but urging repentance. All of this is well spoken and very familiar territory for me and I'm under no illusions about what the Bible says about the homosexual lifestyle, plus 2000 years of Church fathers speaking out on this issue; homosexuality is clearly at variance with God's will.

The issue I'm exploring is a little different. In the Catholic faith, we separate sin in a technical sense (having broken God's statutes) from culpability which is predicated on what we know and can reasonably be held accountable for. And I don't mean this to be a "catholic" thing because I've heard it expressed differently in Protestant circles as well. It is possible for sin to occur without culpability for the same reason that small children aren't held to the same standard as adults. Children break things, set fires, vandalize, lie, smite other children, steal, and otherwise occupy themselves with mischief but we don't treat them the same as adults who do these things.

In regard to homosexuals in same sex partnerships, particularly those who are fellow Christians, there is a sincerity and invincibility to their belief they are doing nothing wrong and that their love is not immoral. It's not something I can convince you of with this post, you can only learn this for yourselves by befriending homosexuals and getting to know them on a deep personal level. This is why I keep harping on the fact that we talk about homosexuals, but rarely talk to them. It's far more difficult to condemn people when you get to know them and come to understand they aren't sticking their thumb in God's eye, that they are truly trying to live lives of conscience. In knowing this, I propose with this thread that we hold them to high standards of personal conduct; that they exercise godly principles of selfless love and unbreachable fidelity in their committed relationships. Certainly my lesbian friends demonstrate that it can be done.

 

[justaname]

http://www.catechism.cc/articles/homosexuality-sin.htm

Homosexuality and Sin: a summary of Catholic teaching



A. Basic Moral Principles

1. All sexual acts, outside of natural marital relations open to life, are intrinsically evil and always objective mortal sins.
2. All unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always objective mortal sins.
3. All sexual acts between persons of the same gender are intrinsically evil and always objective mortal sins.
4. Sins are acts involving the intellect (knowing) and the will (choosing). An orientation is not, in and of itself, an act or a sin.
5. The homosexual orientation itself is intrinsically evil, but is not itself a sin.
6. Since the homosexual orientation is intrinsically evil, any and all acts, whether sexual or not, by which a human person knowingly chooses to move toward, cooperate with, reinforce, or act upon, a homosexual orientation is itself a sin, either venial or mortal.
7. All human persons are children of God. No human person is intrinsically evil, even if he or she has an intrinsically evil sexual orientation.
8. All human persons inherently deserve just and merciful treatment.
9. The promotion and spread of homosexuality is offensive to God and is gravely harmful to families, the Church, and society in general.
10. Society has the right and the duty to make laws which discourage sinful acts that cause serious harm to society.


2. The claim that homosexual sex outside of marriage is no worse than heterosexual sex outside of marriage.

The Bible condemns fornication (sexual acts outside of marriage) and it also condemns homosexual acts; both are serious sins against God. However, the Bible also distinguishes between these two types of serious sexual sins. In Deuteronomy 22:28-29, an unmarried man who sleept with an unmarried woman sins and was given a punishment, but the punishment was less than death. On the other hand, if any man had sexual relations with another man, the punishment was death, and the act itself is called by Sacred Scripture an abomination, the strongest word of condemnation used in the Bible:

D. Definitive Catholic Teaching

1. All sexual acts between persons of the same gender are always objectively gravely immoral.
2. The homosexual orientation itself, while not a sin, is objectively, seriously, intrinsically disordered.
3. The attempted marriage of two persons of the same gender is never a valid Sacrament of marriage, nor is it even a true natural marriage.
4. The adoption of children, or the bearing of children through immoral means, by two persons of the same gender, is contrary to the will and plan of God.
5. Persons with a homosexual orientation are not fitting candidates for ordination or the religious life, nor for positions of authority, teaching, and leadership in the Church.
6. The Promotion of so-called 'safe sex,' and the promotion of the use of condoms, is contrary to reason, the natural law, and the will of God.
7. Various persons with a homosexual orientation have different degrees of culpability for that state, depending upon various factors, but no one with a homosexual orientation is entirely without guilt for that state, because we are all sinners.
8. Persons with a homosexual orientation have a moral obligation to attempt to change, so as to conform themselves, as much as they are able, to the will and plan of God, and to the pattern for human life so clearly set forth by Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary.
9. Homosexual acts are more severely disordered, and therefore they are more sinful, than heterosexual acts outside of marriage.
10. The homosexual orientation is neither natural nor good, and it is certainly contrary to the will and plan of God.
11. All human persons must be treated with respect, since they have been created in the image of God.
12. Sinful behavior should never be encouraged by any person or group, nor by society in general.


by Ronald L. Conte Jr.
Roman Catholic theologian
January 8, 2007