A Moral Framework for Same Sex Unions?

[Suhar]

living in unrepentant sin and as such be condemned in eternity. I've been terrified at the anticipation of them crying out to me, "Why didn't you warn us?"


In regard to homosexuals in same sex partnerships, particularly those who are fellow Christians,

[SIZE=medium]Sounds like you plan on joining them there so that you can listen![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] Somebody who cannot understand the difference between lust and love surely cannot understand that second statement is an epic oxymoron.[/SIZE]

 

[Dodo_David]

In regard to homosexuals in same sex partnerships, particularly those who are fellow Christians, there is a sincerity and invincibility to their belief they are doing nothing wrong and that their love is not immoral.

The sincerity of their belief does mean that what they believe is true.
Their belief is being driven by what pleases their flesh, not on what God tells us through the Bible.

We mere mortals have a bad habit of giving in to the desires of those to whom we are emotionally attached,
even when those desires are clearly sinful.

Emotional attachment can prevent us from being objective when it comes to sinful behavior,
but it doesn't have to be that way.

Parents of minors often have to practice tough love whenever those minors do something wrong.
For some strange reason, we get to thinking that tough love can't be practiced when dealing with adults.

The Lord Jesus loved the Pharisees, but He practiced tough love when confronting the Pharisees about the errors of their ways.

 

[Suhar]

The sincerity of their belief does mean that what they believe is true.

[SIZE=medium]Good example of that was Paul prosecuting Christians with all zeal and sincerity before he had major “oops moment”.[/SIZE]

 

[Dodo_David]

The sincerity of their belief does mean that what they believe is true.

[SIZE=medium]Good example of that was Paul prosecuting Christians with all zeal and sincerity before he had major “oops moment”.[/SIZE]

That is an excellent example.

 

[Selene]

That is an excellent example.

This is why we leave the judgments to God. Yes, St. Paul was persecuting Christians with sincerity and zeal, BUT also with ignorance. Paul did not know that Christ is God until Christ revealed Himself to him.

 

[Suhar]

This is why we leave the judgments to God. Yes, St. Paul was persecuting Christians with sincerity and zeal, BUT also with ignorance. Paul did not know that Christ is God until Christ revealed Himself to him.

[SIZE=medium]There is no way to be ignorant of that sin. God already judged it in rather unequivocal and spectacular fashion. Ever heard of fire and brimstone?[/SIZE]

 

[Wormwood]

I appreciate all the responses I'm getting because I've privately wrestled with the notion that my lesbian friends may be living in unrepentant sin and as such be condemned in eternity. I've been terrified at the anticipation of them crying out to me, "Why didn't you warn us?" As I said, one of them is a woman I've known my whole life because she was once my teacher in school, so to say she and her partner are dear to me is a statement I can't do justice to in this post.

A lot of the responses seem to fall naturally into a well worn rut of reiterating the issue of homosexuality as a sin and the importance of not compromising the truth in our passion to reach people for Christ. I've been reminded that real love is not condoning sin but urging repentance. All of this is well spoken and very familiar territory for me and I'm under no illusions about what the Bible says about the homosexual lifestyle, plus 2000 years of Church fathers speaking out on this issue; homosexuality is clearly at variance with God's will.

The issue I'm exploring is a little different. In the Catholic faith, we separate sin in a technical sense (having broken God's statutes) from culpability which is predicated on what we know and can reasonably be held accountable for. And I don't mean this to be a "catholic" thing because I've heard it expressed differently in Protestant circles as well. It is possible for sin to occur without culpability for the same reason that small children aren't held to the same standard as adults. Children break things, set fires, vandalize, lie, smite other children, steal, and otherwise occupy themselves with mischief but we don't treat them the same as adults who do these things.

In regard to homosexuals in same sex partnerships, particularly those who are fellow Christians, there is a sincerity and invincibility to their belief they are doing nothing wrong and that their love is not immoral. It's not something I can convince you of with this post, you can only learn this for yourselves by befriending homosexuals and getting to know them on a deep personal level. This is why I keep harping on the fact that we talk about homosexuals, but rarely talk to them. It's far more difficult to condemn people when you get to know them and come to understand they aren't sticking their thumb in God's eye, that they are truly trying to live lives of conscience. In knowing this, I propose with this thread that we hold them to high standards of personal conduct; that they exercise godly principles of selfless love and unbreachable fidelity in their committed relationships. Certainly my lesbian friends demonstrate that it can be done.

VOT,
The difference I see here is that we don't try to justify the actions of children who act inappropriately toward others or classify it as a variant form of "love." I think Christians often get a bad wrap on this issue when people say they "target" or "bash" homosexuality. Yes, we are all sinners, but there is a difference between struggling with sin and refusing to recognize a certain behavior or lifestyle as a sin. If the prostitute had told Jesus, "I want to follow you, but I just want you to know that there is nothing wrong with my lifestyle" do you think he would have welcomed her? Of course there is grace for those who seek it, but in my mind, this issue is not unlike what we see with the Pharisees and Christ. The prostitutes and "sinners" were welcomed by Jesus because they came to him in brokenness and repentance. The Pharisee's felt "justified" in their actions and therefore saw no need for forgiveness. When we justify our sin, ANY sin, we are in danger. Calling homosexuality "love" or outside of God's will, but not a big deal, undermines the very essence of the cross in my estimation. Repentance is not an option for following Jesus. A person must count the cost and be willing to lay down their own desires for that of Christ. I think we have a very weak understanding of discipleship today. A faith that costs nothing and sacrifices nothing...means nothing.

 

[Dodo_David]

VOT,
The difference I see here is that we don't try to justify the actions of children who act inappropriately toward others or classify it as a variant form of "love." I think Christians often get a bad wrap on this issue when people say they "target" or "bash" homosexuality. Yes, we are all sinners, but there is a difference between struggling with sin and refusing to recognize a certain behavior or lifestyle as a sin. If the prostitute had told Jesus, "I want to follow you, but I just want you to know that there is nothing wrong with my lifestyle" do you think he would have welcomed her? Of course there is grace for those who seek it, but in my mind, this issue is not unlike what we see with the Pharisees and Christ. The prostitutes and "sinners" were welcomed by Jesus because they came to him in brokenness and repentance. The Pharisee's felt "justified" in their actions and therefore saw no need for forgiveness. When we justify our sin, ANY sin, we are in danger. Calling homosexuality "love" or outside of God's will, but not a big deal, undermines the very essence of the cross in my estimation. Repentance is not an option for following Jesus. A person must count the cost and be willing to lay down their own desires for that of Christ. I think we have a very weak understanding of discipleship today. A faith that costs nothing and sacrifices nothing...means nothing.

What he said.

 

[Selene]

[SIZE=medium]There is no way to be ignorant of that sin. God already judged it in rather unequivocal and spectacular fashion. Ever heard of fire and brimstone?[/SIZE]

I meant he was ignorant in his reason. He was guilty of persecuting Christians, and he persecuted Christians because he believed that they were lying about the resurrection and spreading false rumors. He was ignorant because he didn't know that the Christians were actually speaking the truth until the risen Christ revealed Himself to Paul.

In the same way, the Roman soldiers were guilty of nailing Christ to the cross and killing him. But they were ignorant as to who Christ is. This is why Christ said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." They didn't know that they were nailing the Son of God to the cross. They thought they were nailing a mere man to the cross. In other words, they were guilty of killing Jesus, but ignorant of who they killed.

 

[Dodo_David]

I meant he was ignorant in his reason. He was guilty of persecuting Christians, and he persecuted Christians because he believed that they were lying about the resurrection and spreading false rumors. He was ignorant because he didn't know that the Christians were actually speaking the truth until the risen Christ revealed Himself to Paul.

In the same way, the Roman soldiers were guilty of nailing Christ to the cross and killing him. But they were ignorant as to who Christ is. This is why Christ said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." They didn't know that they were nailing the Son of God to the cross. They thought they were nailing a mere man to the cross. In other words, they were guilty of killing Jesus, but ignorant of who they killed.

Ignorance is one thing. Ignoring what the New Testament says is another.

Granted, I don't expect non-Christians to believe what the New Testament says, but Christians are supposed to believe it.

 

[FHII]

VOT,
The difference I see here is that we don't try to justify the actions of children who act inappropriately toward others or classify it as a variant form of "love." I think Christians often get a bad wrap on this issue when people say they "target" or "bash" homosexuality. Yes, we are all sinners, but there is a difference between struggling with sin and refusing to recognize a certain behavior or lifestyle as a sin. If the prostitute had told Jesus, "I want to follow you, but I just want you to know that there is nothing wrong with my lifestyle" do you think he would have welcomed her? Of course there is grace for those who seek it, but in my mind, this issue is not unlike what we see with the Pharisees and Christ. The prostitutes and "sinners" were welcomed by Jesus because they came to him in brokenness and repentance. The Pharisee's felt "justified" in their actions and therefore saw no need for forgiveness. When we justify our sin, ANY sin, we are in danger. Calling homosexuality "love" or outside of God's will, but not a big deal, undermines the very essence of the cross in my estimation. Repentance is not an option for following Jesus. A person must count the cost and be willing to lay down their own desires for that of Christ. I think we have a very weak understanding of discipleship today. A faith that costs nothing and sacrifices nothing...means nothing.

I agree with what you said Wormwood. I highlighted two statements you made that I'd like to talk about. The first (difference between struggling with and refusing to recognize sin) is a very good point. I am in no way supporting homosexual behavior, but rather supporting grace as effecient in coving all sin -- even that one. However, those that are homosexuals and wish for follow Christ have to realize that in the Law of Moses and even by the words of Paul -- Christ's ambassador and spokesman -- it is a sin. And it is a big deal as is any sin (even not having a battlement on your house).

Consider the words of James.... Now for those of you who like the concept of "faith without works is dead" (which I don't, but that's another topic), I wonder if you agree with James when he said if you keep the whole law yet offend one point, you are guilty of all [the law]. That being said, there is no one point of the law more important than the other, as it pertains to the flesh. So, if we all have sinned, then in the eyes of God we are all sinners on the same level.

To be more direct, homosexuals are sinners, but not more so than any one else. What's even worse is that if you are guilty of any of the law, you are guilty of being a homosexual yourself. And if grace covers you not having a battlement on your house, it equally covers homosexuals. AND if you don't like the battlement sin as an example, I can find another one you are guilty of.

That brings me to the point you made about repentance. I do agree that we need to repent, but how do we effeciently repent, and must we give up what we repent of? Please keep what James said about being guilty of all sin in mind. If a homosexual wants to follow Christ, he must repent. What would you have him do? Should he say, "Lord, I am sorry for my homosexual lifestyle and I will stop it right now!"? There's two problems with that....

1. Are you going to repent and start building your battlement?
2. What about all the other sins in the homosexual's life? Gluttony, lying, stealing? I'm not saying all homosexuals do that... But all humans do to some degree at times in their life. But he's got to repent for those too, no?

Of course he does and we all do. And of you believe that repenting means giving it up, then we all fail. What are there: some 470 Laws of Moses? We would have to repent of all of them that apply (or all of them if you believe what James said is true) and NEVER do them again. And if we do, we have to re-repent and repent for lying to God when you said you wouldn't do it again! I don't know about you, but that is going to take a few hours each day for me! I have to repent for 470 things (or go through the checklist and figure out which ones I did and didn't do....)

I want to break for a second and make a sidenote: If there are any homosexuals reading, going to Church to promote your cause or press your rights as a homosexual is flat out wrong! I don't care if it's a Catholic Church or any other Church. If you go to a Church you are there to worship God, not make a political stance!

OR maybe we can take a lesson from the publican in Luke 18:11 and simply say, "God be merciful to me a sinner." He didn't try to repent or quit one sin, or two.... He admitted he was a sinner and asked for mercy. Now, I know that wasn't the point of that story Jesus told, but it is true. That's what his prayer of repentance was and according to Jesus, he got results!

Back to my point, which is this: it's useless to try to repent from one particular sin (or two or three or....) when we have a deck of some 470 against us (and we can double that because Jesus said if we so much think it, we are guilty). And if a homosexual must quit being a homosexual, then he and we must quit every other sin listed in the Law. Can't be done.

Let me conclude.... Why is it that the Christian community is so hard on homosexuals? MY OPINION is that it's pretty "yucky".... Folks, I don't get it either! Pretty disgusting if you ask me! But that's the reason. It's the most vulgar sin in our eyes that's common. Yet, it wasn't in God's top 10. Paul talked about it, but I don't ever remember Jesus talking about it and according to James it's on the same level as every other sin.

I pray that every homosexual is delivered. It's not natural and it is a sin. And, I just don't get it! But I'm not going to condemn homosexuality above or below any other sin of the flesh. I believe and with support from the Bible believe that a practicing homosexual can be saved just as much as any other sinner who never stops being a sinner. Furthermore, repenting doesn't mean you stop sinning, but that you are spiritually taking a new direction. If you believe that repenting means stop doing a particular or group or even all sins, it's impossible and useless to try. But if you believe in grace through faith then it's possible to obey Jesus when he said, "Go, and sin no more!" because you are doing it through FAITH!

...Which is a whole lot harder than most people think.

I'm going to address questions I deem worthwhile, but otherwise, I'm not going to dwell on this petty topic anymore.

 

[marksman]

But it brings me back to God's backup plan. Though same sex unions were not his original intention, those in such unions who seek God I don't think are castigated. I think they are held to a moral standard even in a less than perfect situation; to be faithful to one another with sacrificial love and to love their fellow man. I think that people in this situation should be held to the same moral code that protects and prospers traditional families. I think that this is God's will for them in the context of Plan B.

Homosexuality and a moral standard are by and large an oxymoron. The two are rarely found together. Apart from the fact if it is proscribed by God, how can it be moral in any form.

Homosexuals have very publicly admitted that moral is not a word that they use in regards to SSM. In a discussion on Australian TV about SSM, Dennis Altman a leading spokesman and in a 20 year relationship said that we do not aspire to monogamy. Both men will approve the other having sex on the side with other men so they do not intend to be faithful to each other with sacrificial love.

There is no point in trying to hold them to the same moral code of traditional families because the two people involved in the relationship are emotionally dysfunctional, the relationship itself is emotionally dysfunctional and the thinking behind the relationship is born of emotional dysfunction.

It is for these reasons that the average length of homosexual relationships is two years, if you are lucky.

 

[Wormwood]

I agree with what you said Wormwood. I highlighted two statements you made that I'd like to talk about. The first (difference between struggling with and refusing to recognize sin) is a very good point. I am in no way supporting homosexual behavior, but rather supporting grace as effecient in coving all sin -- even that one. However, those that are homosexuals and wish for follow Christ have to realize that in the Law of Moses and even by the words of Paul -- Christ's ambassador and spokesman -- it is a sin. And it is a big deal as is any sin (even not having a battlement on your house).

Consider the words of James.... Now for those of you who like the concept of "faith without works is dead" (which I don't, but that's another topic), I wonder if you agree with James when he said if you keep the whole law yet offend one point, you are guilty of all [the law]. That being said, there is no one point of the law more important than the other, as it pertains to the flesh. So, if we all have sinned, then in the eyes of God we are all sinners on the same level.

To be more direct, homosexuals are sinners, but not more so than any one else. What's even worse is that if you are guilty of any of the law, you are guilty of being a homosexual yourself. And if grace covers you not having a battlement on your house, it equally covers homosexuals. AND if you don't like the battlement sin as an example, I can find another one you are guilty of.

That brings me to the point you made about repentance. I do agree that we need to repent, but how do we effeciently repent, and must we give up what we repent of? Please keep what James said about being guilty of all sin in mind. If a homosexual wants to follow Christ, he must repent. What would you have him do? Should he say, "Lord, I am sorry for my homosexual lifestyle and I will stop it right now!"? There's two problems with that....

1. Are you going to repent and start building your battlement?
2. What about all the other sins in the homosexual's life? Gluttony, lying, stealing? I'm not saying all homosexuals do that... But all humans do to some degree at times in their life. But he's got to repent for those too, no?

Of course he does and we all do. And of you believe that repenting means giving it up, then we all fail. What are there: some 470 Laws of Moses? We would have to repent of all of them that apply (or all of them if you believe what James said is true) and NEVER do them again. And if we do, we have to re-repent and repent for lying to God when you said you wouldn't do it again! I don't know about you, but that is going to take a few hours each day for me! I have to repent for 470 things (or go through the checklist and figure out which ones I did and didn't do....)

I want to break for a second and make a sidenote: If there are any homosexuals reading, going to Church to promote your cause or press your rights as a homosexual is flat out wrong! I don't care if it's a Catholic Church or any other Church. If you go to a Church you are there to worship God, not make a political stance!

OR maybe we can take a lesson from the publican in Luke 18:11 and simply say, "God be merciful to me a sinner." He didn't try to repent or quit one sin, or two.... He admitted he was a sinner and asked for mercy. Now, I know that wasn't the point of that story Jesus told, but it is true. That's what his prayer of repentance was and according to Jesus, he got results!

Back to my point, which is this: it's useless to try to repent from one particular sin (or two or three or....) when we have a deck of some 470 against us (and we can double that because Jesus said if we so much think it, we are guilty). And if a homosexual must quit being a homosexual, then he and we must quit every other sin listed in the Law. Can't be done.

Let me conclude.... Why is it that the Christian community is so hard on homosexuals? MY OPINION is that it's pretty "yucky".... Folks, I don't get it either! Pretty disgusting if you ask me! But that's the reason. It's the most vulgar sin in our eyes that's common. Yet, it wasn't in God's top 10. Paul talked about it, but I don't ever remember Jesus talking about it and according to James it's on the same level as every other sin.

I pray that every homosexual is delivered. It's not natural and it is a sin. And, I just don't get it! But I'm not going to condemn homosexuality above or below any other sin of the flesh. I believe and with support from the Bible believe that a practicing homosexual can be saved just as much as any other sinner who never stops being a sinner. Furthermore, repenting doesn't mean you stop sinning, but that you are spiritually taking a new direction. If you believe that repenting means stop doing a particular or group or even all sins, it's impossible and useless to try. But if you believe in grace through faith then it's possible to obey Jesus when he said, "Go, and sin no more!" because you are doing it through FAITH!

...Which is a whole lot harder than most people think.

I'm going to address questions I deem worthwhile, but otherwise, I'm not going to dwell on this petty topic anymore.

FHII,

Thanks for your elaboration on these ideas. I don't know that I really agree with a few of your points though. First, repentance means to change ones living. Josephus actually uses the Greek word with regards to surrendering and joining the opposing army. Simply because we cannot live perfectly does not mean we cannot repent. Repentance means to entirely change one's way of living and embrace a new way. If we say, "Well I cannot live perfectly, therefore I cannot repent" then we misunderstand repentance. For instance, say I am a egotistical, lying, jerk who loves to get plastered on the weekends. When I come to Christ and repent, then my entire lifestyle should change. I embrace a new way of living that is selfless, honest, kind and turns away from the party scene. Now just because I may tell a lie on occasion or fall to temptation and get drunk one weekend, that doesn't mean I should just give up. Rather, I continually seek forgiveness and strive even more passionately to live a life that honors God because of the grace I have received. Though I may never be perfect, I can live a new life under new principles and values. The same is true with homosexuality. It is a behavior, not an identity. A person can leave a lifestyle, partnership and fellowship of people that encourage me to embrace what God condemns. Will this person have a lustful thought of a person of the same sex? Will this person perhaps fail morally after coming to Christ? Yes. But does this does not mean they should not be determined to completely turn their backs on that way of life. You said,

I believe and with support from the Bible believe that a practicing homosexual can be saved just as much as any other sinner who never stops being a sinner.

Can you show me this biblical support? I believe the Bible says that all the "sexually immoral" will find their place in the lake of burning sulfur. Yes, we have grace, but grace is not license to embrace immorality.

Second, I do believe some sins are worse than others. I think the Bible supports this fully. Are you suggesting that murdering an infant is the same as telling your wife she looks nice when she rolls out of bed and it looks like her head is being mauled by a muskrat? Of course not. Romans 1 makes it clear that some sins are more depraved than others and homosexuality is one of those. All sexual sins are severe because a person sins against their own body. Just some of my thoughts.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

VOT,
The difference I see here is that we don't try to justify the actions of children who act inappropriately toward others or classify it as a variant form of "love." I think Christians often get a bad wrap on this issue when people say they "target" or "bash" homosexuality. Yes, we are all sinners, but there is a difference between struggling with sin and refusing to recognize a certain behavior or lifestyle as a sin. If the prostitute had told Jesus, "I want to follow you, but I just want you to know that there is nothing wrong with my lifestyle" do you think he would have welcomed her? Of course there is grace for those who seek it, but in my mind, this issue is not unlike what we see with the Pharisees and Christ. The prostitutes and "sinners" were welcomed by Jesus because they came to him in brokenness and repentance. The Pharisee's felt "justified" in their actions and therefore saw no need for forgiveness. When we justify our sin, ANY sin, we are in danger. Calling homosexuality "love" or outside of God's will, but not a big deal, undermines the very essence of the cross in my estimation. Repentance is not an option for following Jesus. A person must count the cost and be willing to lay down their own desires for that of Christ. I think we have a very weak understanding of discipleship today. A faith that costs nothing and sacrifices nothing...means nothing.

Repentance follows conviction, conviction that we are sinners. And every one of us sinners falls in the category of knowing what it's like to be completely unaware they are sinning until they are brought to that realization. But what's more telling is the fact that we continue to sin and offend God in ways beyond our perception. If we didn't, then our sanctification would be complete, but it's never complete in this vale of tears. It's never complete until Christ glorifies us. In this I'm not offering you anything you didn't already understand.

In regards to the sin of homosexuality, it becomes more difficult to see it as sin precisely because nobody is visibly hurt by it. I don't have to labor long to convince somebody that they sinned when they steal, rape, or murder because the wrong of it is so profound that it's sensed by everyone, Christian or non-Christian, and the laws that govern society are based on those actions that clearly does violence to the rights of the individual.

And bringing this to the issue of homosexuality, I can see somebody who lives a life of casual sex, homosexual orgies in tandem with drug use, and prostitution and crossdressing coming to understand their life is empty and the path they're going down is wrong. A strong case can be made that this was the epidemic that was clearly condemned by Scripture and the reason that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by an angel. Gangs of homosexuals roamed the streets finding new victims and destroying all that was decent. In fact, the Bible says that God destroyed the cities because of the outcry of their neighbors, meaning that once the cities were corrupted, they metastasized to outlying population centers. In summary, what was happening was a clear case of harm visited upon people by other people. The sin in this could not be more obvious.

But when we're talking about my two lady friends, it's a far cry from the plunderers, rapists, and oppressors that defined ancient Canaan, whose practices the Israelites were commanded not to imitate. From their point of view, nobody is being hurt, oppressed, or in any way deprived of basic individual rights by their choice to enter into a voluntary union with each other. Without demonstrable harm, the task of compelling them to believe their relationship is sin becomes very steep indeed; particularly because their love for each other is solid, committed, and unshakable, a real thing of substance.

In the Christian community, there's no lack of condemnation for the sin of homosexuality. But while we're rich in judgment, we are niggardly in understanding their point of view because, as I often touted here, we talk about them but not to them. We impose upon them a standard that we hypocritically don't follow ourselves, demanding they be sinless before coming to Christ. But none of us came to Christ that way. We all came with sin and darkened understanding of God's ways and we continue to be adumbrated, seeing in a mirror dimly, our offensive ignorance being covered by a deluge of grace. I suggest that rather than impose an impossible standard, that we embrace everyone who wants seek the love of Christ as brothers and sisters and allow the process of sanctification to work out everything else.

 

[Suhar]

In regards to the sin of homosexuality, it becomes more difficult to see it as sin precisely because nobody is visibly hurt by it.


But when we're talking about my two lady friends

[SIZE=medium]You answered your own question. Those two ladies are hurt by their sin, you are hurt by it because you doubt God and your children are hurt because you allow them to see it as normal.[/SIZE]

 

[FHII]

FHII,

Thanks for your elaboration on these ideas. I don't know that I really agree with a few of your points though. First, repentance means to change ones living. Josephus actually uses the Greek word with regards to surrendering and joining the opposing army.


Can you show me this biblical support? I believe the Bible says that all the "sexually immoral" will find their place in the lake of burning sulfur. Yes, we have grace, but grace is not license to embrace immorality.

Second, I do believe some sins are worse than others. I think the Bible supports this fully. Are you suggesting that murdering an infant is the same as telling your wife she looks nice when she rolls out of bed and it looks like her head is being mauled by a muskrat? Of course not. Romans 1 makes it clear that some sins are more depraved than others and homosexuality is one of those. All sexual sins are severe because a person sins against their own body. Just some of my thoughts.

Hello Wormwood,

I appreciate your reply. I've said all I care to on the topic of repentance. As for Biblical support on whether anyone who sins in the flesh (including practicing homosexuals) can be saved, I refer to the many scriptures on grace doing such. I'll give just one: Romans 5:20.

As for sins being worse than others, I too believe there are some worse than others but my list from the Bible would be spiritual in nature. I'm pretty careful (might slip up now and then) to note "sins of the flesh". Grace isn't going to cover false worship. On the human side, yes I too believe there are some sins worse than others. I'd rather live next to someone who steals pencils and pens from work than an ax murderer. Based on what James said, however, the slightest sin is as deadly as the worst.

I will make one more comment: you stated that sexual immoral people will burn in the lake of boiling sulfur. That may be in the scripture or not.... Don't recall. However The Bible also says the same thing about "all liars". Have you ever told a lie, even a little white one? (Of course, that isn't meant to be a question directed at you or anyone else for that matter, just a question to make a point).

 

[marksman]

In regards to the sin of homosexuality, it becomes more difficult to see it as sin precisely because nobody is visibly hurt by it.

Just a small point here. That is what homosexual fundies say to convince us that homosexuality is not a sin. There are no victims they cry, but it could not be further from the truth.

Here are some of the victims and how they are hurt by it.

Young homosexuals are told that their homosexuality is normal so they are hurt by it because it is not so they are believing a lie.

Homosexuals are told that you are born that way so if they have an unwanted same sex attraction, they have to live with it, they can't get help to lose it.

You are at greater risk of AIDS per head of population if you are a homosexual so your life expectancy is shorter.

STD is greater in the homosexual community than in the heterosexual community.

Rejection amongst homosexuals is very high so the preponderance to suicide follows.

Violence between homosexual partners is higher than otherwise so homosexual relationships can be very dangerous.

Multiple sexual partners are very high in the homosexual community. Research shows some who have had sex with over 500 different men. That is bound to produce emotional dysfunction and instability.

Homosexual relationships are very transient. On average they last two years so anyone wanting a long term relationship is going to be very disappointed.

Whilst the non homosexual community has its problems, it is not as bad as those who are in the homosexual community.

I will make one more comment: you stated that sexual immoral people will burn in the lake of boiling sulfur. That may be in the scripture or not.... Don't recall. However The Bible also says the same thing about "all liars". Have you ever told a lie, even a little white one? (Of course, that isn't meant to be a question directed at you or anyone else for that matter, just a question to make a point).

I doubt that it is making a point as God forgives and forgets our sin, so if I lie (once) and later confess, it is forgiven and forgotten.

Some people have a fixation about sin, which minimises the saving work of Christ as it says his blood covers my sin but I still have to worry about it every day.

The scripture says that the law of the spirit of life sets me free from the law of sin and death. Now, either I am set free from the law of sin and death or I am not. It is not a case of a dollar each way.

I am confident that if I walk in the Spirit which I am called to do, he is quite able to warn me against sin and remind me if I have sinned which I can get forgiveness for and I don't need any priest to confess it to as I have the great High Priest for that purpose.

 

[Selene]

Ignorance is one thing. Ignoring what the New Testament says is another.

Granted, I don't expect non-Christians to believe what the New Testament says, but Christians are supposed to believe it.

There was no New Testament books at that time when Paul was persecuting Christians. Only the Old Testaments existed.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I didn't read all the posts here , I have never been pro-gay yet have nothing personal against most of them . My biggest complaint are the minority of gays who try to force us to believe it is "normal" ... clearly it is not , whether by the laws of God or the laws of nature .

Some of the most respected people in my small city turns out were gay , they are elderly now , kept it quiet , and nobody has a bad thing to say about them and neither do I and I worked for them at one time.

To be fair , I think if we could measure it accurately , homosexuality within Christianity is less of a problem than adultery within Christianity , yet we accept it much more readily for some reason.

Bottom line I feel life long gay partners should be able to have some type of "legal" union , but please dont call it marriage.

Thank you.

 

[FHII]

I doubt that it is making a point as God forgives and forgets our sin, so if I lie (once) and later confess, it is forgiven and forgotten.

So what if you lie a hundred times a day and later confess, or what if you forget to confess? What if you forgot all the lies you told?