A question for mormons.

[Grailhunter]

Good. Now I want to understand how, in your eyes, this information changes the meaning of the verse in question, "for ye are saved by grace after all that ye can do." so that it does not mean what I have said it means.



Technically, Joseph and Mary were only betrothed to each other, and not yet married: but if you want to call it adultery rather than fornication, same point as when I said it was fornication. Did God the Father sin?

The Spirit of God became one with the egg in the womb of the virgin Mary in the conception of Jesus, forming a zygote, in a miraculous fashion, out of Spirit and flesh (the egg).

Technically, Joseph and Mary were only betrothed to each other, and not yet married: but if you want to call it adultery rather than fornication, same point as when I said it was fornication. Did God the Father sin?

This is the problem with reading only the Bible...if you read it like it is the latest edition of the Sunday Paper, you are going to miss a lot. You have to understand the time period. In those days if they found a woman pregnant and it was not her betrothed, it was considered adultery. And she would be killed. As well as the man, if they could find him. Remove the evil among you.

Even in the storyline....Joseph was going to put her away quietly, and an angel had to come and smooth things over.

As far as Yeshua's conception....if he was zapped into her womb....manifested in her womb....teleported into her womb, it would be an entity in her womb....not the Son of God. The Bible only gives you one process of having a son. The words associated with that are beget, begot, begotten, and conceive. Give in this case, something that was part of God, His Son. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. We do not have a video of it, all we have is words of what would be expected. Why so hard to believe...sex and nudity is dirty, nasty, and sinful?....made by the devil?
No, the idea that man corrupted what God made is only some "man's" imagination. If we had a video of it, most Christians would think it was a porno.

 

[Grailhunter]

You state this as though it is a fact.

Are you saying it in agreement with Mormon doctrine?

If so, this is one more evidence that Mormon doctrine teaches that the Father had sexual relations with Mary.

Please learn the Mosaic Law! And look at the description and words used. I am stating the facts not endorsing anything.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you're just going to say just blanket not believe what I say & cite due to prejudice, what's they point of me responding?

All I'm saying is that I'm going to suspend my judgment until I've exhaustively read all of the Mormon documents; and will never become a Mormon unless or until I discover that there is no substantiation for the doctrine in question therein.

Do you think that I might not ever become a Mormon because of this?

See post 153.

What I had said was in response to post 153.

The central thesis is (emphasis mine): "26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away."

How does this context change the plain meaning of what it says that "ye are saved by grace after all that ye can do." so that the verse does not mean what I have said it means?

You may be satisfied in your mind that the verse is nullified; but personally, I believe that if the Book of Mormon be inspired scripture, that the context of any one verse will never nullify the plain meaning of the verse. For that is the nature of all that is truly inspired of the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please learn the Mosaic Law!

The Mosaic law says that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary?

 

[justbyfaith]

Technically, Joseph and Mary were only betrothed to each other, and not yet married: but if you want to call it adultery rather than fornication, same point as when I said it was fornication. Did God the Father sin?

This is the problem with reading only the Bible...if you read it like it is the latest edition of the Sunday Paper, you are going to miss a lot. You have to understand the time period. In those days if they found a woman pregnant and it was not her betrothed, it was considered adultery. And she would be killed. As well as the man, if they could find him. Remove the evil among you.

Even in the storyline....Joseph was going to put her away quietly, and an angel had to come and smooth things over.

As far as Yeshua's conception....if he was zapped into her womb....manifested in her womb....teleported into her womb, it would be an entity in her womb....not the Son of God. The Bible only gives you one process of having a son. The words associated with that are beget, begot, begotten, and conceive. Give in this case, something that was part of God, His Son. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. We do not have a video of it, all we have is words of what would be expected. Why so hard to believe...sex and nudity is dirty, nasty, and sinful?....made by the devil?
No, the idea that man corrupted what God made is only some "man's" imagination. If we had a video of it, most Christians would think it was a porno.

My simple reply is that you read Matthew 1:20 and Luke 1:35. That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost (a Spirit).

Also, adultery is sin just like fornication is. Are you saying that God the Father sinned by having sexual relations with Mary?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Do you think that I might not ever become a Mormon because of this?.

Honestly, I don't really care. I acknowledge you as a Protestant Christian, and have zero desire to do anything to change that.

What I had said was in response to post 153.

How does this context change the plain meaning of what it says that "ye are saved by grace after all that ye can do." so that the verse does not mean what I have said it means?

You may be satisfied in your mind that the verse is nullified; but personally, I believe that if the Book of Mormon be inspired scripture, that the context of any one verse will never nullify the plain meaning of the verse. For that is the nature of all that is truly inspired of the Lord.

It's not "nullifying". Rather, it's giving the larger in context picture.
Christ is what's doing the saving. No one is earning salvation by works. In the author's time, they did keep the Law of Moses and strive to follow it, but that was (when done properly) out of a love & belief in the Savior. The law itself doesn't save anyone, rather all are dead in and and alive in Christ.

Nowadays, the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ and we no longer keep it. But we do strive to keep Christ's commandments.

But the focus was/is always Christ, His role as the Savior, and having faith in Him.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Technically, Joseph and Mary were only betrothed to each other, and not yet married: but if you want to call it adultery rather than fornication, same point as when I said it was fornication. Did God the Father sin?

This is the problem with reading only the Bible...if you read it like it is the latest edition of the Sunday Paper, you are going to miss a lot. You have to understand the time period. In those days if they found a woman pregnant and it was not her betrothed, it was considered adultery. And she would be killed. As well as the man, if they could find him. Remove the evil among you.

Even in the storyline....Joseph was going to put her away quietly, and an angel had to come and smooth things over.

As far as Yeshua's conception....if he was zapped into her womb....manifested in her womb....teleported into her womb, it would be an entity in her womb....not the Son of God. The Bible only gives you one process of having a son. The words associated with that are beget, begot, begotten, and conceive. Give in this case, something that was part of God, His Son. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. We do not have a video of it, all we have is words of what would be expected. Why so hard to believe...sex and nudity is dirty, nasty, and sinful?....made by the devil?
No, the idea that man corrupted what God made is only some "man's" imagination. If we had a video of it, most Christians would think it was a porno.

These are Grailhunter's views, and he's not an LDS Christian, I'm not going to really comment on it.

 

[Grailhunter]

These are Grailhunter's views, and he's not an LDS Christian, I'm not going to really comment on it.

lol

 

[Grailhunter]

My simple reply is that you read Luke 1:35.

Also, adultery is sin just like fornication is. Are you saying that God the Father sinned by having sexual relations with Mary?

Are you saying that God the Father sinned by having sexual relations with Mary?
I am telling you like it is....and can God sin?
See the whole thing does not have to be about the Son of God.
A God manifested in a woman's womb. That is a God in a woman's womb. Does not have to be Son of God. Just drop the Son part and your beliefs are golden. But that is not the storyline. That is not the description. That is not the words used.
What does it look like when a male overshadows a woman? Missionary position.
So unless you can come up with other words or explanations, then the words tells the story.

 

[justbyfaith]

Honestly, I don't really care.

You didn't say that I might become a Mormon eventually. Obviously, you know something I don't.

lol

What's funny? The fact that @Grailhunter is espousing Mormon views but that @Jane_Doe22 is trying to hide the fact that Mormons believe in them?

 

[justbyfaith]

Just drop the Son part and your beliefs are golden.

1Jo 4:15, Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:5, Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

What does it look like when a male overshadows a woman? Missionary position.

Not if the male is a Spirit and not flesh.

See, @Grailhunter, I think that you believe in Mormon doctrine that God the Father is really an exalted man.

Thus you cannot conceive of the fact that the conception in Mary's womb was a spiritual conception, via a Father who is a Spirit, John 4:23-24.

 

[justbyfaith]

and can God sin?

No...and this is a reason why your doctrine is faulty.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You didn't say that I might become a Mormon eventually. Obviously, you know something I don't.

Your walk with God is yours. I acknowledge and respect that. I'm not ever going to lift a finger to try to change that. Nor am I going to pretend that I'm some sort of crystal ball to say "oh well X is going to happen in the future" -- such is absurd.

What's funny? The fact that @Grailhunter is espousing Mormon views but that @Jane_Doe22 is trying to hide the fact that Mormons believe in them?

Grailhunter's ideas are Grailhunter's.
And please stop with these incredibly disrespectful implications that I'm somehow lying or hiding something.

I think that you believe in Mormon doctrine that God the Father is really an exalted man..

LDS Christians don't hold any such ideas as you (a Creedal Christian) are thinking when you say that statement. This is a long tangent to go off on.

 

[justbyfaith]

It's not "nullifying". Rather, it's giving the larger in context picture.
Christ is what's doing the saving. No one is earning salvation by works. In the author's time, they did keep the Law of Moses and strive to follow it, but that was (when done properly) out of a love & belief in the Savior. The law itself doesn't save anyone, rather all are dead in and and alive in Christ.

Nowadays, the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ and we no longer keep it. But we do strive to keep Christ's commandments.

But the focus was/is always Christ, His role as the Savior, and having faith in Him.

However, the verse in question indicates that I cannot become a recipient of grace until after I have done all that I can possibly do in the way of works in order to attain to it.

And again, since grace is what enables us to live the Christian life and also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, it is not a good thing that I would be without the influence of grace until after I have fully lived my life.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

However, the verse in question indicates that I cannot become a recipient of grace until after I have done all that I can possibly do in the way of works in order to attain to it.

And again, since grace is what enables us to live the Christian life and also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, it is not a good thing that I would be without the influence of grace until after I have fully lived my life.

justbyfaith is you give every little physical thing to God -- literally every penny, every second, every breath, and go to the stake to be burned to death --- everything you possibly could ever conceivably could do -- and did so without faith in Christ -- are you saved?
NO!!!!
After all you do -- after all every single earthly thing you do or possibly every could do -- without Christ you are downright bankrupt and worthless.
You can NOT save yourself. No matter how much Law of Moses or other stupid pharsicatical stuff people come up with. After all of that -- you need Christ.

Hence preaching of Christ, rejoicing in Christ, so that we may know the source of our of redemption.

 

[Grailhunter]

No...and this is a reason why your doctrine is faulty.

Not faulty...spot on. I asked you to come up with a explanation that agrees with the terms in Bible.
You are probably a oneness person and one of those that like to think that Christ created the world and man. Now you don't have to explain why the phrase Son of God does not show up in OT....Three God's one person created the world. Three Gods...One person manifesting in Miriam's womb. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in Miriam's womb. Solves the problem for your faulty beliefs. Drop the Son designation, and ignore all the terms association with impregnation and sonship and you are golden.

 

[justbyfaith]

justbyfaith is you give every little physical thing to God -- literally every penny, every second, every breath, and go to the stake to be burned to death --- everything you possibly could ever conceivably could do -- and did so without faith in Christ -- are you saved?
NO!!!!
After all you do -- after all every single earthly thing you do or possibly every could do -- without Christ you are downright bankrupt and worthless.
You can NOT save yourself. No matter how much Law of Moses or other stupid pharsicatical stuff people come up with. After all of that -- you need Christ.

Hence preaching of Christ, rejoicing in Christ, so that we may know the source of our of redemption.

I see that you believe this...praise God! You do not believe what the Book of Mormon teaches on this matter.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I see that you believe this...praise God! You do not believe what the Book of Mormon teaches on this matter.

What I just said is literally the Book of Mormon chapter summary.

 

[justbyfaith]

Now you don't have to explain why the phrase Son of God does not show up in OT....

Actually, the concept does...in Proverbs 30:4.

Three Gods...One person manifesting in Miriam's womb. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in Miriam's womb.

Jas 2:19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Oh wait...you don't believe in that.

Drop the Son designation, and ignore all the terms association with impregnation and sonship and you are golden.

Again...

1Jo 4:15, Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:5, Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

And Jesus also was not conceived as the result of physical impregnation.

 

[justbyfaith]

What I just said is literally the Book of Mormon chapter summary.

It certainly calls for reexamination.