A question for my fellow universalists

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Patrick1966

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Help me to understand. How are there still people outside the city at the very end of the Bible?

Revelation 22:14-15 YLT
14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
15 and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.
 

Charlie24

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Help me to understand. How are there still people outside the city at the very end of the Bible?

Revelation 22:14-15 YLT
14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
15 and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.

Some aren't going to like this, but the truth is truth, regardless of how they feel!

Remember in the thread I started when I said that the UR scholars are ignorant to Scripture? I know that's harsh, but not without reason. Let me show you how ignorant they really are. I'm picking on them because they are the ones to blame!

Rev. 22:14-15
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Do you see the bold "may have the right?" That is interpreted "may have access" to the tree of life.

Now let's look at the verses again to see what John was saying.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right (may have access) to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without (without access to the tree of life) are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

This is how desperate these people are! The question I have been searching for years, are the UR scholars aware they are taking Scripture out of context, or are they this ignorant to Scripture?

I have come to the conclusion they are this ignorant! I really do believe that.
 

Charlie24

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That would include me too.

I'm just trying to show the people this whole thing with the UR is a dream, and there's no truth in it.

I truly wish there were some truth in it, but there's not!
 

Robert Gwin

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Help me to understand. How are there still people outside the city at the very end of the Bible?

Revelation 22:14-15 YLT
14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
15 and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.
Only those anointed Christians who truly “wash their robes” so as to be clean in Jehovah’s eyes are privileged to “go to the trees of life.” That is, they receive the right and title to immortal life in their heavenly position. (Compare Genesis 3:22-24; Revelation 2:7; 3:4, 5.) After their death as humans, they gain entrance into New Jerusalem by resurrection. The 12 angels allow them in, while keeping out any who practice lies or uncleanness though claiming to have a heavenly hope. The great crowd on earth also have “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” and need to maintain their clean standing. This they can do by avoiding the vices that Jehovah here warns against, as well as by taking to heart Jesus’ admonition in his seven messages to the congregations.—Revelation 7:14; chapters 2 and 3.
 
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Charlie24

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Only those anointed Christians who truly “wash their robes” so as to be clean in Jehovah’s eyes are privileged to “go to the trees of life.” That is, they receive the right and title to immortal life in their heavenly position. (Compare Genesis 3:22-24; Revelation 2:7; 3:4, 5.) After their death as humans, they gain entrance into New Jerusalem by resurrection. The 12 angels allow them in, while keeping out any who practice lies or uncleanness though claiming to have a heavenly hope. The great crowd on earth also have “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” and need to maintain their clean standing. This they can do by avoiding the vices that Jehovah here warns against, as well as by taking to heart Jesus’ admonition in his seven messages to the congregations.—Revelation 7:14; chapters 2 and 3.

"The great cloud" I suppose are the rest of us who are saved underneath the elite JW's.

I may make this my next project, if I have the time!
 
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Patrick1966

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The simple answer (duh!) is that the events in Revelation occur BEFORE the events in 1 Corinthians 15!


The Resurrection of Christ
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”[d]

33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[e] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

The Resurrection Body
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
 

Robert Gwin

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"The great cloud" I suppose are the rest of us who are saved underneath the elite JW's.

I may make this my next project, if I have the time!
Hi Charlie, been a while sir. No one who refuses to worship Jehovah will be there in my opinion. Why would they be?
 
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Robert Gwin

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You mean after we die we can still engage in sin and thus be left out?
No sir, in fact quite the opposite. Those who have died have been acquitted of sin Rom 6:7. The only ones who will not receive a resurrection is those who have sinned against the holy spirit Mat 12:31,32
 

FaithWillDo

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Help me to understand. How are there still people outside the city at the very end of the Bible?

Revelation 22:14-15 YLT
14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
15 and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.
Dear Patrick1966,
Yes, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and He certainly will not fail as the apostate church believes.

As for Rev 22:14-15, you have to understand that the book of Revelation is only teaching on the salvation of the Elect. It is the Elect who "keep the sayings of the prophecies". The book's teachings stop after the bodily resurrections occur and does not teach on the events of the final age and its final outcome.

Also, the book of Revelation is not teaching on future one-time world events as most people believe. It is teaching on the Pathway to Salvation all the Elect will travel. For that reason, the Elect must keep the sayings of the book in order to be saved. And since salvation comes to a person only by the works of Christ, Christ will make sure that all the Elect will keep the sayings.

The book clearly says that the seals are already open and the time is AT HAND:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

If the time for the Book of Revelation is still future, how can anyone, especially those who have lived and died over the past 2000 years, ever hope to KEEP THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY?

Was Christ mistaken when He said "I come quickly" and "the time is at hand"? Two thousand years is not quick nor can that long length of time mean that the time is at hand.

So what does it mean for the time to be at hand? We don't have to guess. All we have to do is look to scripture and it will give us the answer:

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus Christ is the Kingdom of Heaven. With His proclamation in Mat 3:2, Christ was announcing that the Kingdom of Heaven had come - that the time was at hand.

The truth is the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in the 1st century A.D. even before John received the prophecy and they have continued to be fulfilled over and over again since that time within the life of each of Christ's Elect.

For Christ's Elect, Christ has already come or is presently coming or will come in the future before they physically die.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to COME; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to COME, the Almighty.


Christ's second coming to His Elect is a reoccurring spiritual event. It will continue until the last chosen person is saved and this age comes to an end.

The book of Revelation is not teaching about outward coming world events. The book is teaching on the pathway to salvation. It is the unveiling of Christ within an individual at their moment of conversion.

Also, the events which were shown to John were presented to him by spiritual symbols.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

These symbols are not literal outward events that take place in the world. These events described by the symbols are spiritual events; meaning that they happen within a person.

If a person has been chosen by Christ to be a First Fruit of His harvest, Christ will see to it that they keep the sayings of the book and find salvation before they physically die.

Matthew chapter 24 is one of the great end-time prophecy teachings of Christ. And just like in the Book of Revelation, Matthew chapter 24 is teaching about the Pathway to Salvation which Christ will cause His Elect to travel in their lifetimes. It is not a teaching on future outward world events.

In Matthew 24:34, Christ is referring to His Elect (the generation) who have been chosen for salvation in this present age.

Christ said:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation of First Fruits will not pass away until each of His Elect keep the sayings of the prophecy and are saved.

Joe
 
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Robert Gwin

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Hello Robert! Where will the "great cloud" be in relation to the JW"s
What great cloud sir? Please give me the Scriptural reference. I though initially you were speaking about the great crowd, but you have stated great cloud twice now. If you are speaking of the great crowd, you will notice they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. That lamb is Jesus, so they would worship the same God Jesus worshipped sir. Did this answer your question Charlie?
 

Charlie24

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What great cloud sir? Please give me the Scriptural reference. I though initially you were speaking about the great crowd, but you have stated great cloud twice now. If you are speaking of the great crowd, you will notice they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. That lamb is Jesus, so they would worship the same God Jesus worshipped sir. Did this answer your question Charlie?

Correct me if I'm wrong, it's very possible that I am!

It's my understanding that the JW's believe the "great cloud" are the saved minus the JW's.

In other words, the "great cloud" of saints will have access to earth, but only the JW's will have access to heaven.

As I understand it, this is where the 144,000 will be. So they would be the elite, so to speak.
 

Robert Gwin

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Correct me if I'm wrong, it's very possible that I am!

It's my understanding that the JW's believe the "great cloud" are the saved minus the JW's.

In other words, the "great cloud" of saints will have access to earth, but only the JW's will have access to heaven.

As I understand it, this is where the 144,000 will be. So they would be the elite, so to speak.
Sure Charlie, glad to explain sir. The Bible states that 144k will be redeemed from the earth. Rev 14:3 It tells us the reason why at Rev 5:9,10 by informing us they have been selected from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues to serve as Kings and Priests under King Jesus. Jesus stated to his apostles that he would go and make a place for them in heaven Jn 14:2,3 and he made a covenant with them early on the day of of his death for a Kingdom Luke 22:28,29. When Jesus died he returned to heaven to sit at his Fathers right hand until he was appointed King, and his enemies cast out of heaven. Acts 2:34,35. After he received his crown God would perform the first resurrection, and those of the 144 k who had died up to that point would be resurrected Rev 20:6. Those who die after that, but before Christs return will be changed in the twinkling of an eye 1 Cor:15:51-53, lastly those alive will be "raptured" up to meet Jesus in the air upon his return 1 Thes 4:17

Jesus told us that he had sheep that were not of that fold however Jn 10:16, but they were still part of the flock of God under one shepherd. He had quoted Ps 37:11 to God's people who were gathered at his sermon on the mount that the meek would inherit the earth. These are the other sheep, still Christians but not those who have been selected to live in heaven as Kings and Priests over the Kingdom, rather they are the earthly citizens of the Kingdom of God Mat 6:10.

When Jesus returns he is coming to do the battle called Armageddon, which will remove all those who do not know God, nor obey the gospel 2 Thes 1:6-9. The rest of the anointed will have met him in the air, but the other sheep that are to inherit the earth that are alive at the end of the tribulation will be protected and come out of that tribulation alive. The Bible states there will be many, an innumerable amount Rev 7:9 of which the Bible refers to them as a great crowd/multitude.

It might click with you Charlie, but if you have further questions please feel free to ask sir.
 

Charlie24

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Sure Charlie, glad to explain sir. The Bible states that 144k will be redeemed from the earth. Rev 14:3 It tells us the reason why at Rev 5:9,10 by informing us they have been selected from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues to serve as Kings and Priests under King Jesus. Jesus stated to his apostles that he would go and make a place for them in heaven Jn 14:2,3 and he made a covenant with them early on the day of of his death for a Kingdom Luke 22:28,29. When Jesus died he returned to heaven to sit at his Fathers right hand until he was appointed King, and his enemies cast out of heaven. Acts 2:34,35. After he received his crown God would perform the first resurrection, and those of the 144 k who had died up to that point would be resurrected Rev 20:6. Those who die after that, but before Christs return will be changed in the twinkling of an eye 1 Cor:15:51-53, lastly those alive will be "raptured" up to meet Jesus in the air upon his return 1 Thes 4:17

Jesus told us that he had sheep that were not of that fold however Jn 10:16, but they were still part of the flock of God under one shepherd. He had quoted Ps 37:11 to God's people who were gathered at his sermon on the mount that the meek would inherit the earth. These are the other sheep, still Christians but not those who have been selected to live in heaven as Kings and Priests over the Kingdom, rather they are the earthly citizens of the Kingdom of God Mat 6:10.

When Jesus returns he is coming to do the battle called Armageddon, which will remove all those who do not know God, nor obey the gospel 2 Thes 1:6-9. The rest of the anointed will have met him in the air, but the other sheep that are to inherit the earth that are alive at the end of the tribulation will be protected and come out of that tribulation alive. The Bible states there will be many, an innumerable amount Rev 7:9 of which the Bible refers to them as a great crowd/multitude.

It might click with you Charlie, but if you have further questions please feel free to ask sir.

I'm sorry Robert, but I have all kinds of problems with this!

The "flock that is not of this foal" is the Gentile Church. When the Jews rejected Christ and God turned to the Gentiles to proclaim Christ to the world, they are "the flock" He was speaking of.

It is plainly written in Scripture that the 144,000 are made up of 12,000 each from the tribes of Israel. The JW's are taking all of this out of context making themselves something they are not!
 
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Robert Gwin

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I'm sorry Robert, but I have all kinds of problems with this!

The "flock that is not of this foal" is the Gentile Church. When the Jews rejected Christ and God turned to the Gentiles to proclaim Christ to the world, they are "the flock" He was speaking of.

It is plainly written in Scripture that the 144,000 are made up of 12,000 each from the tribes of Israel. The JW's are taking all of this out of context making themselves something they are not

The names are different, and God's word clearly stated they were from all tribes, nations, peoples, and tongues Charlie Rev 5:9,10. The Israel of God are the 144k Gal 6:16.

The other sheep are not of that fold, they are the billions of people who are given everlasting life who inherit the earth sir. All Christians, all citizens of God's Kingdom, simply different assignments. God chose the bride of Christ from among humans rather than using angels wisely, as they have all been tested and fully relate to all the problems imperfect humans have had to deal with. Just makes sense to me sir, why would God choose angels who had never experienced what humans have to deal with?
 

Charlie24

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The names are different, and God's word clearly stated they were from all tribes, nations, peoples, and tongues Charlie Rev 5:9,10. The Israel of God are the 144k Gal 6:16.

The other sheep are not of that fold, they are the billions of people who are given everlasting life who inherit the earth sir. All Christians, all citizens of God's Kingdom, simply different assignments. God chose the bride of Christ from among humans rather than using angels wisely, as they have all been tested and fully relate to all the problems imperfect humans have had to deal with. Just makes sense to me sir, why would God choose angels who had never experienced what humans have to deal with?

Robert, you are not being honest with Rev. 5:9-10! But I do know you well enough to know you are indeed an honorable person and would not intentionally lead anyone astray. You have just joined the wrong crowd!

In that Scripture, the 4 creatures and the 24 elders fall down before the Lamb (Christ). They sing a new song, which is praising Christ in redeeming mankind from every tongue, people, and nation.

Robert, there is no 144,000 in those verses! This is JW propaganda, and you know it, it's plain to see for everyone.
 

Robert Gwin

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Robert, you are not being honest with Rev. 5:9-10! But I do know you well enough to know you are indeed an honorable person and would not intentionally lead anyone astray. You have just joined the wrong crowd!

In that Scripture, the 4 creatures and the 24 elders fall down before the Lamb (Christ). They sing a new song, which is praising Christ in redeeming mankind from every tongue, people, and nation.

Robert, there is no 144,000 in those verses! This is JW propaganda, and you know it, it's plain to see for everyone.
Perhaps, but why do you think the 144k have been redeemed from the earth sir? I gather you think the song they master is not the same song of those of Rev 5, but it is interesting how both accounts speak of a song isn't it Charlie.