A quote from Wesley

[Prentis]

Hi all! This is a quote from John Wesley, an 18th century preacher, who is credited as a key founder of Methodism, from which it is said flowed the holiness, pentecostal, and charismatic movements.

"But it may be asked, if there be no true love of our neighbour but that which springs from the love of God, and if the love of God flows from no other fountain than faith in the Son of God, does it not follow that the whole heathen world is excluded from all possibility of salvation? Seeing they are cut off from faith for "faith cometh by hearing" and how shall they hear without a preacher? I answer St Paul's words spoken on another occasion are applicable to this;"What the law speaketh, it speaketh to those under the law". Accordingly that sentence "He that believeth not shall be damned" is spoken of them to whom the gospel is preached Others it does not concern, and we are not required to determine any thing touching their final state. How it will please God the Judge of all to deal with them, we may leave to God himself. But this we know that he is not the God of the Christians only, but the God of the heathens also; that he is rich in mercy to all that call upon him according to the light they have, and that in every nation "he that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted of him"."

What think ye? Wise? Foolish? True? False?

 

[Shirley]

I am excited! I believe this to be absolute and gospel truth. I was not taught this but just felt it. I was raised Allegheny Wesleyan Methodist and I never heard that taught. Awesome! Those outside the church God judges! We shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ means those who heard. Amen Love it!

 

[Jake]

Hi all! This is a quote from John Wesley, an 18th century preacher, who is credited as a key founder of Methodism, from which it is said flowed the holiness, pentecostal, and charismatic movements.

"But it may be asked, if there be no true love of our neighbour but that which springs from the love of God, and if the love of God flows from no other fountain than faith in the Son of God, does it not follow that the whole heathen world is excluded from all possibility of salvation? Seeing they are cut off from faith for "faith cometh by hearing" and how shall they hear without a preacher? I answer St Paul's words spoken on another occasion are applicable to this;"What the law speaketh, it speaketh to those under the law". Accordingly that sentence "He that believeth not shall be damned" is spoken of them to whom the gospel is preached Others it does not concern, and we are not required to determine any thing touching their final state. How it will please God the Judge of all to deal with them, we may leave to God himself. But this we know that he is not the God of the Christians only, but the God of the heathens also; that he is rich in mercy to all that call upon him according to the light they have, and that in every nation "he that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted of him"."

What think ye? Wise? Foolish? True? False?

It's not a foolish statement because we know the sun rises on the righteous and the wicked, we are responsible for the light given to us, to those much, much is expected, to those little, little is expected. God does tell us Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

I could be wrong here, but doesn't this verse apply to all men, everywhere? Even if you do not hear the gospel, God has given them an inward knowledge of Himself, so that if they reject Him, they are without excuse?

How does this fit into what Wesley has said?

Thanks!

 

[FHII]

I'll have to take a pass on this.... I haven't read any of Westley's work. I'm currently reading What Calvin wrote. I'd rather not make a snap judgment on Westley.

 

[Shirley]

Jake, I think that is also exactly what Wesley is saying. Those who fear God and work righteousness are accepted. The apostle Paul said that their own conscience would accuse or excuse them on Judgement day.

 

[Jake]

Accordingly that sentence "He that believeth not shall be damned" is spoken of them to whom the gospel is preached Others it does not concern, and we are not required to determine any thing touching their final state. How it will please God the Judge of all to deal with them, we may leave to God himself. What think ye? Wise? Foolish? True? False?

Shirley, I could be reading alot more into this than what Wesley is saying, but my point was to the above highlighted quote. I am understanding this to say that those who do not believe, will be damned, but this is only spoken to believers. To unbelievers this is inconsequential, Wesley is saying it does not concern them (even though it IS about them). Is he saying that there is a possibility to be saved without Christ?
OR...again, maybe that is not at all what he is saying, I just wonder why Wesley would say it doesn't concern unbelievers? My question is genuine, I just want to clarify what he means.

 

[Prentis]

I am excited! I believe this to be absolute and gospel truth. I was not taught this but just felt it. I was raised Allegheny Wesleyan Methodist and I never heard that taught. Awesome! Those outside the church God judges! We shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ means those who heard. Amen Love it!

Amen, Sister! Those outside, God judges!

It's not a foolish statement because we know the sun rises on the righteous and the wicked, we are responsible for the light given to us, to those much, much is expected, to those little, little is expected. God does tell us Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

I could be wrong here, but doesn't this verse apply to all men, everywhere? Even if you do not hear the gospel, God has given them an inward knowledge of Himself, so that if they reject Him, they are without excuse?

How does this fit into what Wesley has said?

Thanks!

Here's how it fits.

If God influences a man without telling him his name and who is influencing him, and that man responds positively, that man has responded positively to the light given him.

Think about this, the Queen of the South, with whom Solomon shared his wisdom, sought out the light available at this time, and she will rise in judgment to those who did not accept Jesus when he came to them in the flesh, because he is greater then Solomon. She responded well to the light given her, they didn't!

If all the light that is provided to a man is to see and understand he must love his neighbour, and he obeys this, who are we to say he is unworthy of life?

 

[Shirley]

Wasn't that scripture a quote from the old testament? If all they heard about was God and not about Christ then how could God hold them responsible? Of course they could probably not take part in the first resurection and they would never know of the power in Jesus name. But could it not be possible for those who did not hear Christs name to recieve his Spirit not knowing it just b/c they searched for God? I don't know. But they are under his sacrifice whether they know it or not! HalleluYAH our God is justice itself! May we love like him!

 

[Prentis]

Romans 2:14
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

Heathens can do the things of the law!!!!????

Yes!

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The law is to PERFECT the love of God in us, to bring us to Christ, to maturity. But one may love without the law!

Wasn't that scripture a quote from the old testament? If all they heard about was God and not about Christ then how could God hold them responsible? Of course they could probably not take part in the first resurection and they would never know of the power in Jesus name. But could it not be possible for those who did not hear Christs name to recieve his Spirit not knowing it just b/c they searched for God? I don't know. But they are under his sacrifice whether they know it or not! HalleluYAH our God is justice itself! May we love like him!

That is right spot on, Shirley!

One cannot be a saint without knowing God, but one can be righteous, loving his neighbor.

It does not say 'all are called', but 'many are called', referring to those called to sainthood. Those called to sainthood have a higher standard, to love as he loved.

The saints rule with Christ, while the righteous of the nations live... in the nations!

The standard for a saint is to love as he loves, because we have his example. The standard for the righteous is to love his neighbour as HIMSELF.

 

[aspen]

Hi all! This is a quote from John Wesley, an 18th century preacher, who is credited as a key founder of Methodism, from which it is said flowed the holiness, pentecostal, and charismatic movements.

"But it may be asked, if there be no true love of our neighbour but that which springs from the love of God, and if the love of God flows from no other fountain than faith in the Son of God, does it not follow that the whole heathen world is excluded from all possibility of salvation? Seeing they are cut off from faith for "faith cometh by hearing" and how shall they hear without a preacher? I answer St Paul's words spoken on another occasion are applicable to this;"What the law speaketh, it speaketh to those under the law". Accordingly that sentence "He that believeth not shall be damned" is spoken of them to whom the gospel is preached Others it does not concern, and we are not required to determine any thing touching their final state. How it will please God the Judge of all to deal with them, we may leave to God himself. But this we know that he is not the God of the Christians only, but the God of the heathens also; that he is rich in mercy to all that call upon him according to the light they have, and that in every nation "he that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted of him"."

What think ye? Wise? Foolish? True? False?

Spectacular. Love Wesley.

 

[Prentis]

Spectacular. Love Wesley.

Yes, a very wise man!

He once said.... The longer I live, the larger allowances I make for human infirmities. I exact more from myself and less from others.

Wow! Such wisdom... With even half his measure of wisdom, we would be well off!

 

[IanLC]

I agree and I think highly of John Wesley he contributed to the founding of Methodism from which the Holiness Movement which I adhere to got its genesis. John Wesley was a great teacher and preacher its very rare to see that now. I love the "Second Work of Grace" which is sanctification and holiness!

 

[FHII]

I'm anxious to read his writings. I have many folks I want to understand. I'm starting with Calvin, but want to look at Westley, Martin, Ireneus and Brahnam as well. I believe they were all men of God, and had some great insight. However, so much to read and at the same time I can't ignore reading the Bible too! All them may be of the devil, but I know Moses, David, Isaiah, Paul, etc weren't.... I haven't come to understand all they wrote, so I'm a bit pussyfooted (no, that ain't a bad word!) to move on to these guys, although I am confident they will be great.

If anyone wants to suggest someone to my future reading list, please... by all means do.

 

[Jake]

Romans 2:14
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

Heathens can do the things of the law!!!!????

Yes!

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The law is to PERFECT the love of God in us, to bring us to Christ, to maturity. But one may love without the law!



That is right spot on, Shirley!

One cannot be a saint without knowing God, but one can be righteous, loving his neighbor.

It does not say 'all are called', but 'many are called', referring to those called to sainthood. Those called to sainthood have a higher standard, to love as he loved.

The saints rule with Christ, while the righteous of the nations live... in the nations!

The standard for a saint is to love as he loves, because we have his example. The standard for the righteous is to love his neighbour as HIMSELF.

I like Wesley, too, but I also believe we should check out what people say and not take it as all Truth, otherwise we end up following a man instead of God.

This concept is difficult to grasp (for me) that those outside of God can be righteous, too, but I can finally SEE this. I studied that verse in Romans, adding the next few verses and that is exactly what it says! Saints are called to the full stature of Christ, yet some will receive eternal life and not be called to this!

 

[rockytopva]

"If I died worth more than ten pounds, independent of my books, and the arrears of my fellowship, I will give the world leave to call me 'a thief and a robber.' " - John Wesley

 

[Prentis]

I like Wesley, too, but I also believe we should check out what people say and not take it as all Truth, otherwise we end up following a man instead of God.

This concept is difficult to grasp (for me) that those outside of God can be righteous, too, but I can finally SEE this. I studied that verse in Romans, adding the next few verses and that is exactly what it says! Saints are called to the full stature of Christ, yet some will receive eternal life and not be called to this!

Amen!

Watch this difference... John tells us that if we are in Christ, we have eternal life... now. And Paul tells us if we are faithful, and suffer with him, we will be glorified with him. We walk in eternal, going to glory, the full stature of Christ.

In Matt. 25, the judgment of the nations, the sheep (righteous of the nations) are THEN given eternal life. They did not have it, but now Christ gives it to them. They do not go to glory with Christ, but they do go to eternal life.

God is no respecter of persons, whoever practices righteousness is righteous.

 

[Shirley]

I am just loving all these comments! Amen!

 

[rockytopva]

"When a man dies he should have enough to bury him... And a few pense for his friends." - John Wesley


John Wesley gave every ounce of his being to God. When he died there was very little left of him... Every bit of it was given to the Kingdom of Heaven! I just love reading about that man! I read large volumes of his revivals in England. There were times that he was greeted with mobs threatening to drown him in the river. He would ask them for a word in which he would win them over... Incredible stuff!