A Request For The 144000 Jews And Christians To Come To Jerusalem

[Vickie]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------A Foreign Ministry official confirmed in 2005 that a “blueprint of a possible agreement with the Vatican has been received.” The proposed contract, as Arutz-7 reported at the time, read as follows:"The State of Israel hands over to the Holy See the use of the Cenacle [the room of the event known as the Last Supper, above King David's tomb - ed, of the access path to it, and of the spaces adjacent to it... It is the Holy See's intention to inform the Bishops - and through them the world's Priests - that the Catholic Church has been given the use of the Cenacle, inviting them to visit the Holy Place together with their faithful... The Holy See hands over this use of the Cenacle to the Custody of the Holy Land [which acts on behalf of the Holy ... [whic will keep the Cenacle open from 6 AM to 8 AM for the celebration of the Holy Mass... Official liturgical celebrations of non-Catholic Churches can take place only upon prior written permission by the Custody of the Holy Land."The proposed agreement also stipulated that the Holy See will preserve the historic character of the site and keep it open to pilgrims and tourists, and that Israel will provide for the safety of the site. The Foreign Ministry official said at the time that “Israel is not prepared to relinquish its jurisdiction over this area.” The world will find out later this week whether this position is still valid.Rabbi Mordechai Goldstein, who founded and still runs the Diaspora Yeshiva, officially known as Yeshiva Toras Yisrael, told Arutz-7 in the past that "according to their bible, the Land is to return to the Christians, and 144,000 Jews are to return to Mt. Zion. Their plan is for them to take control of the site, and then to announce that they are holding a mass reenactment of the Last Supper, with [all types of religious ritual, and to invite millions of Christians to come to Jerusalem and celebrate." Rabbi Goldstein said that this means much tourism money for Israel, and that someone in the Israeli government is apparently very interested in making this happen. (Does anybody see what is going on here?)The King David's Tomb complex, some 100,000 square feet, is "certainly one of the holiest spots in the Land of Israel," a yeshiva source said. "David, Solomon and others kings of Judea are said to be buried here. We've already given away the Temple Mount and the Machpelah Cave, except for here and there when we're allowed in; now they want to give Mt. Zion away as well? For thousands of years, this area was almost always totally closed off to Jews. G-d gave it back to us in 1948, but parts of it were still in range and sight of Jordanian snipers and were not in full use. After 1967, Rabbi Goldstein founded the Diaspora Yeshiva here - and it became an island of holiness, the first yeshiva for baalei teshuvah [newly religious in Israel; we were there day and night learning Torah. Rabbi Goldstein was almost prophetic in establishing this yeshiva at that time at that spot; destiny from above intertwined him with Mt. Zion." Vickie says: What have they on their mind to be gathering the Christians and the 144000 Jews together. Is this getting into Revelations?

 

[Martin W.]

Vickie , I think maybe you are reading a little too much into this agreement.The Nation of Israel has had control over "religion" and "religious sites" for many years. This looks to me like just another agreement between a couple of groups , with mostly an eye toward tourism dollars. Christian tourism is big business in Israel. I do not think it is any more than that.By the way , many Jews know the New Testament and Revelation very well. Sometimes better than we do. The strategic military planners even refer to it. They can see the harmony between Parts of Revelation and OT prophecy. They may not be Christians , but they certainly are not idiots either. Especially the Military and tourism depts.Many years ago Hal Lindsey was asked to speak privately to top Military planners in Israel. They wanted to hear his "Christian" point of view on the future of the middle East.Part way through the speech the Military planners began whispering to each other and had bewildered looks on their faces. Hal questioned them on this and it turns out everything he was saying was exactly what the Army had envisioned would happen. They thought Hal had somehow accessed secret Military reports. He told them it was all compiled from the Bible. They have paid closer attention ever since. So should we.Martin W.

 

[Vickie]

QUOTE (Martin W. @ Apr 27 2009, 02:28 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73049
Vickie , I think maybe you are reading a little too much into this agreement.The Nation of Israel has had control over "religion" and "religious sites" for many years. This looks to me like just another agreement between a couple of groups , with mostly an eye toward tourism dollars. Christian tourism is big business in Israel. I do not think it is any more than that.By the way , many Jews know the New Testament and Revelation very well. Sometimes better than we do. The strategic military planners even refer to it. They can see the harmony between Parts of Revelation and OT prophecy. They may not be Christians , but they certainly are not idiots either. Especially the Military and tourism depts.Many years ago Hal Lindsey was asked to speak privately to top Military planners in Israel. They wanted to hear his "Christian" point of view on the future of the middle East.Part way through the speech the Military planners began whispering to each other and had bewildered looks on their faces. Hal questioned them on this and it turns out everything he was saying was exactly what the Army had envisioned would happen. They thought Hal had somehow accessed secret Military reports. He told them it was all compiled from the Bible. They have paid closer attention ever since. So should we.Martin W.
Hi thanks for your opinion. As Hal pointed out it is "ALL IN OUR BIBLE" and we all need to be inside of it reading and asking the LORD to open our eyes to all he has written.I don't know about you, but I found recently, where I had read in the bible some things I though were saying one thing, only to see now that has a much bigger meaning.I'll give you a hint of what I am saying. Where Jesus was speaking to the disciple about the end, for many years I thought it concerned those disciples, now I read it and without a doubt I know he is speaking of the time coming to End this Age and it is us whom it concerns. So we are all ever learning as we all should be. The place where I disagree with you is the Jews being able to know the bible in certain areas, like the Day of God's wrath on them, I do not belief they can understand, and as Jesus called them blindguides they have miss interpeted the bible in many places having lead his people in wrong ways. Remember they have also been blinded that we be grafted in. So they are the last people I would listen to for direction. Perhaps they keep bringing the Christian ministers over there, who are also blinded in doctrines as God told Daniel that the books were SEALED TILL THE END. So on the bases of God's words I'd say that even Hal Lindsey who I like very much has not had the truth either, for God said until the "END" the books would remain sealed. Daniel 8:26 says seal up the vision for it concerns the distant future, Dan. 10:14 a vision concerns a time yet to come Daniel 12:4 Close up and seal the WORDS OF THE SCROLL until the time of the end. This verse alone has God spoke to tell us that UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END all that in written in the scroll including Revelations will not be made KNOWN to ANY OF US or the JEWS. Hal Lindsey has also been deceived like all of us by Satan, not God, for God said NONE could read it. This is why we have all the doctrines of men floating around concerning the END of the AGE.Thanks Vickie

 

[BenTobijah]

QUOTE (Vickie @ Apr 27 2009, 11:14 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73060
... deceived like all of us by Satan, not God, for God said NONE could read it. This is why we have all the doctrines of men floating around concerning the END of the AGE.Thanks Vickie
Vickie, I do not know why you insist on talking for everyone. You do not talk for me. I am not deceived by Satan, I know God's Word. The books of Daniel and Revelation have been opened for some time now for those that have "eyes to see." And Hal is still wrong.

 

[Vickie]

QUOTE (BenTobijah @ Apr 27 2009, 05:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73075
Vickie, I do not know why you insist on talking for everyone. You do not talk for me. I am not deceived by Satan, I know God's Word. The books of Daniel and Revelation have been opened for some time now for those that have "eyes to see." And Hal is still wrong.
IMHO there is not one person on this earth including Saul, called Paul later, Peter, all the disciples at one point or another have been deceived by Satan, he is the god of this earth and he hasbrought darkness to our eyes as even Paul said in I Cor 13:9-10 For we KNOW in PART and we PROPHESY IN PART, but when PERFECTION COMES (JESUS) the imperfect disappears. NOT ONE PERSON out here has the complete prophecy of the END understood right. WE all have bits and pieces until JESUS COMES. That is my opinion according to the words I read out of the bible. IF YOU HAVE IT ALL THEN YOU ARE DECIEVED. Paul is saying that WE don't even have all THE KNOWLEDGE, but only in part. Vickie

 

[guysmith]

Hello Vickie,You stated: NOT ONE PERSON out here has the complete prophecy of the END understood right. My response: Obviously there are little nuances that have to be worked out, and there are details not yet provided in the Bible. In that respect I agree with you, however, I believe that at least 144,002 (the 144,000 and the two witnesses) will have figured it out, based on information which is provided in the Bible. There is a misconception that the 144,000 will be evangelizing during the GT period. Of the 144,002, only the two witnesses testimony will be heard during the GT. The 144,000, however, are witnessing now and will continue to witness until the start of the GT. The problem is that Christendom has a faulty preconceived perception of who the 144,000 are and what their messaged is, which is not readily accepted by the majority because of this misconception. So, what is there message? The true understanding of the complete prophecy of the end. However, with the majority having the attitude that no one has the complete prophecy of the END understood right, it is easily apparent that very few are open to anyone claiming to have that true understanding. Thus, only 144,002 out of billions of professing Christians.In Yehoshua,Guy Smith

 

[Vickie]

QUOTE
Hello Vickie,You stated: NOT ONE PERSON out here has the complete prophecy of the END understood right.
Hi Guy, it is a pleasure to converse with you. It is not my intention to make anyone feel less than in their understanding of the end, only to encourage everyone to keep an open mind for miss understandings that we may have as we go into more knowledge as the books are opening up that have been sealed. All of us need to remember when God spoke the books were sealed in Daniel on the End, what we though still may not be what God is saying. God doesn't lie and our knowledge puffs us all up.We all need to be open to re-examining the verses as we enter into the last days. The more I study the scriptures the more I am seeing than I did before. God showed me recently that the called out who are wicked called BAD grapes are raised up who have died also at Christ's coming, to be faced with the wrath of God when the angel's come to harvest the earth of her grapes. I am going to post on what God has shown me. it is different, but it is written in his word and I will accept what the bible says, though it has not been included in the former teachings on the END that I am aware of. QUOTE
There is a misconception that the 144,000 will be evangelizing during the GT period. Of the 144,002, only the two witnesses testimony will be heard during the GT.
On that subject my OPINION is that the Saints, called the Elect have the testimony of Jesus as Rev 12:17 and are opposed by the 8th King Rev 17:11 (Son of Perdition) who has received the powers of Satan. Rev 13:2,7 and Daniel 7:25 and they are in a different setting in the end from the 2 wittnesses. No one knows who these two are, we only have speculation and a ton of opinions in all truthfulness. QUOTE
The 144,000, however, are witnessing now and will continue to witness until the start of the GT. The problem is that Christendom has a faulty preconceived perception of who the 144,000 are and what their messaged is, which is not readily accepted by the majority because of this misconception.
To be honest with you, in my study of God's word, the 144000 in Rev 7 of the tribes are the ones who are spoken about through the prophets as the ones God removes and teaches them in the desert 1260 days. They are removed by the flood prophesied in Rev 12:14 and in Isaiah 43:2, a clear description of God removing them. These are the bloodline of the tribes and only 144000 are coming into the kingdom for the services ordained to them under the promise made to Israel in the beginning. The others have their assigned places, but no other bloodline will be given this promise of assignments of offerings that will be established in the kingdom other than the bloodline whom it was promised. The Gentile believers do not have a part in this promise. Our is a crown of life. To live with them for the borders will be extended. Now some will set on the throne judging as I Cor 6:2 points out and Daniel 7:26-27. QUOTE
So, what is there message? The true understanding of the complete prophecy of the end. However, with the majority having the attitude that no one has the complete prophecy of the END understood right, it is easily apparent that very few are open to anyone claiming to have that true understanding. Thus, only 144,002 out of billions of professing Christians.
The message is to trust God, know the Saints are going to be opposed by the beast for 3 1/2 yrs. Till Christ comes and know that is what the bible verses say. The saying the 144000 are Christians is not found in the bible, all the verses of prophecy in the N.T will be spoken of more in the prophets of the O.T and the answers are in there. Not to be any other way. But because the Lord said they would be sealed until the time of the END we have created much to our own shame, trying to fill in the parts all of the Godly men and women called by God. We were all deceived and the bible tells us we are until the books are opened by God to us. So, this is the facts according to the words of God written to us. IN Yeshua's name Vickie

 

[guysmith]

Hello Vickie,It is a pleasure to converse with you also.

However, I will have to pick this up later, I have a commitment to attend to.In Yehoshua,Guy Smith

 

[Martin W.]

QUOTE (guysmith @ Apr 28 2009, 06:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73100
The 144,000, however, are witnessing now Guy Smith
Please name one .ThanksMartin W.

 

[guysmith]

Hello Vickie,You stated: It is not my intention to make anyone feel less than in their understanding of the end, only to encourage everyone to keep an open mind for miss understandings that we may have as we go into more knowledge as the books are opening up that have been sealed. All of us need to remember when God spoke the books were sealed in Daniel on the End, what we though still may not be what God is saying. God doesn't lie and our knowledge puffs us all up.We all need to be open to re-examining the verses as we enter into the last days. My response: agreed.You stated: On that subject my OPINION is that the Saints, called the Elect have the testimony of Jesus as Rev 12:17 and are opposed by the 8th King Rev 17:11 (Son of Perdition) who has received the powers of Satan. My response: I believe that the “elect” are those Christians that will be alive at Christ’s advent. You stated: Rev 13:2,7 and Daniel 7:25 and they are in a different setting in the end from the 2 wittnesses. No one knows who these two are, we only have speculation and a ton of opinions in all truthfulness. My response: Agreed.You stated: To be honest with you, in my study of God's word, the 144000 in Rev 7 of the tribes are the ones who are spoken about through the prophets as the ones God removes and teaches them in the desert 1260 days. My response: I believe that the will be the only males (Christian) that will survive to Christ’s advent. And that You stated: They are removed by the flood prophesied in Rev 12:14 and in Isaiah 43:2, a clear description of God removing them. My response: I believe that they will be protected and fed as part of the woman in Revelation 12 and not miraculously raptured/removed to the desert, but they will flee to Mount Zion as directed by Christ in Matthew 24: 15. In Rev 12:14 the woman is fed and protected from the flood (of persecution) from the mouth of the serpent. In Yehoshua,Guy SmithHello Martin,So far, I have only talked with two that qualify. One is a Roger Dean in Australia. But because they qualify doesn’t mean that they are one. I have talked with a few individuals (online) that claim they are one of the 144,000, and they aren’t. Then there are those that qualify, but don’t claim that they are one because they know that they only qualify. More than the 144,000 will eventually understand (qualify) the puzzle. It’s just that only 144,000 will act upon that understanding.In Yehoshua,Guy Smith

 

[Vickie]

Hello GusHere is a verse that may help you see the 144,000 are of tribe of Judah I was reading and came across these verses that speak well. Zechariah 12:3-9 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. This is depicting Judah coming back as a fire pot to burn the wood which is the nations that will come against Jerusalem just as the above verse tells us. They have been changed by God in the wilderness where all the 12 tribes where taken for 3 1/2 yrs. taught by Jesus. In Rev 14:1 They have been changed by God and this is why they are noted as virgins in description. They come back to fight with Jesus and they are warriors that will always be God's warriors in the Kingdom of God forever, their promise. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. What is interesting here is that there will NOT be more people in Jerusalem than there are in the tribe of Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeblec among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. This is the Day depicting what Rev 14:4 Judah following the Lamb as his army that Jesus comes with.9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. This fascinated me because the facts of what is being said match up with revelation 14 in perfection and the other parts of the O.T. Vickie

 

[guysmith]

Hello Vickie,You stated; Here is a verse that may help you see the 144,000 are of tribe of Judah I was reading and came across these verses that speak well. My response: I think I understand what you are trying to say. Specifically, the 144,000 represent the twelve tribes of Israel, one of which is the tribe of Judah. Revelation 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. However, they are Christian. Galatians 2:21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.And gentiles are not excluded from this group.Galatians 3:29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.You might want to glance over my webpage, just a five minute read.http://geocities.com/guysmith123/144000 In Yehoshua,Guy Smith

 

[Glenn]

A falsh trib could come first to bring in the new age christ, satan is the master of deception and imitator of God.Glen.

 

[Martin W.]

The eternal 144,000 debate continues.Charles Taze Russell began in the 1800's with The Millenium Dawn Students (Fore runner of The Jehovah's Witnesses)He found it Easy enough to convince his followers they were part of the 144,000. Religious pride keeps that door open at all times. It even works today. Especially when you add the teaching that excludes all others in "Christendom" who have had it all wrong for all the previous years. Charles Russell used that tactic as well. Nothing better than telling your followers they have the truth and everybody else is wrong. It still works today. Many people still claim to know the truth to the exclusion of all others. Even on this forum at times you will observe this.Mr Russells first problem cropped up when he had more than 144,000 followers. He had to shut the doors of heaven and come up with some new teachings to keep everything intact. Not hard to do when you have slammed shut the minds of people. Any "Theological" argument will work.Enough about Charles Taze Russell. How about us ???? Have we slammed shut our minds and forgotten to employ some proper theology once in a while ???To be a saved Christian does not require a masters degree in theology. But anyone posting advice on a public forum should at least try to make sure it follows systematic theology. To make an error is allowed , that is why we have questions and forums. To expound incorrect doctrine is a much more serious matter. People's eternal lives are at stake.....................................If in modern day if somebody tries to claim that they know precisely who the 144,000 will be , I get very cautious. Up till now God has made it clear he does the choosing , they come from the 12 tribes , which we do not even think exists in modern day , yet he will know them.We are given some information about the 144,000 and what they will be doing. But if we go beyond what is written we are just as guilty as Charles Russell whom we are quick to call a false teacher. Yet we still do it readily enough.If someone claims the sealling of the 144,000 has already begun , ask them when this happened because I have not observed it yet...... (From Revelation 7)After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. If anyone can provide me evidence of a time when there was no wind anywhere on earth , I am all ears. I would also like to see what the seal on the forehead looks like.Until then , Many thanksMartin W.

 

[guysmith]

Martin,Did I say that anyone is claiming to be one of the 144,000? And did is say that the sealing of the 144,000 has begun? Your response sounds like a preconceived speech which gives me the impression that you did not read or you merely skimmed my post to you.

 

[rodger1]

QUOTE (guysmith @ May 2 2009, 07:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73232
Martin,Did I say that anyone is claiming to be one of the 144,000? And did is say that the sealing of the 144,000 has begun? Your response sounds like a preconceived speech which gives me the impression that you did not read or you merely skimmed my post to you.
Hello GuysmithSoon the new temple will be built and the start of the GT will start. The two witnesses dressed in sackcloth will gather the 144.000 to the old city as their robes are cleaned.

 

[guysmith]

Hello Godbless,You have surfaced. Send my your e-mail. Mine is [email protected]Guy

 

[rodger1]

QUOTE (guysmith @ May 2 2009, 08:05 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73235
Hello Godbless,You have surfaced. Send my your e-mail. Mine is [email protected]Guy
We are already connected Rodger

 

[guysmith]

Hello Rodger,

 

[Vickie]

A falsh trib could come first to bring in the new age christ, satan is the master of deception and imitator of God.Glen.

That's pretty much the truth of it. We are going to have it happen with the snap of the fingers. So fastI don't think we will know what hits us, captivity is coming on those who are to go Jerusalem to go before the beast.I feel most Christians don't realize that with the Son of Perdition in the temple of God which is in Jerusalem, 2 Thess 2:3-9,for the Saints to be opposed by him we have to be there in Jerusalem. The captivity coming will bring us over there to fulfill God's word's written about this prophecy. It is coming much quicker than many of us realize. Trust God for he will be with us, his called chosen and faithful to perform his works in us and through us. Amen. and then we willbe born into the kingdom of God.

The eternal 144,000 debate continues.Charles Taze Russell began in the 1800's with The Millenium Dawn Students (Fore runner of The Jehovah's Witnesses)He found it Easy enough to convince his followers they were part of the 144,000. Religious pride keeps that door open at all times. It even works today.

Hi Martin, there are many other churches out here teaching they are the exclusive 144,000, some churches of God, a lot of independents have done this also and some Pentecostals. It's much more rampart than realized.