A serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

[John Zain]

The NT churches spread the gospel and confirmed it’s truth with signs and wonders
“… and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.” (Acts 2:43, 5:12).

The NT churches were given powerful spiritual gifts to be used in the church and for evangelism
“There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit … the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge,
faith, gifts of healings, the working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues,
interpretation of tongues.” (1 Corinthians 12:4-11)

Paul was trained by the Lord for 17 years (Galatians 1:11--2:1), but …
“… my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be
in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 1:5)

The apostles warned that false teachers and false doctrines were coming
“… there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies
… And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words …” (2 Peter 2:1-3)
Also see 2 Cor. 4:2, Eph. 4:14, Eph. 5:15-17, Col. 2:22, 1 Tim. 1:10, 2 Tim. 3:13, 2 Tim. 4:3-4, Heb. 13:9

The 2 major causes of the early destruction of the spiritual gifts in the Christian church:

First, we must recognize Satan and his powerful influence
Satan, our mortal enemy, is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
“there is no truth in him ... he is liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).
“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4) … and … “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31).
No one works against God and His purposes with more fury than Satan.
He obviously attacks those who have the most spiritual power and authority.
And he obviously attacks the doctrines that have the most spiritual power attached to them.

Second, the “have-not” church leaders were an obvious problem
The Lord did NOT give powerful spiritual gifts to everyone in the NT churches.
These gifts were special anointings, which were connected with the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Naturally, those who did NOT have these spiritual gifts were jealous of those who had them.
The “have-nots” in church authority had to find a way to protect their prestigious positions.
They decided that pointing to 1 Corinthians 13:10 was their safest and best excuse.
And many “have-not” church members went along with this rationalization.

1 Corinthians 13:
[sup]8[/sup] … But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease;
whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
[sup]9[/sup] For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
[sup]10[/sup] But when that which is perfect (complete) has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
[sup]11[/sup] When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child;
but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
[sup]12[/sup] For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as also am known.”

“But when that which is perfect (complete) has come” … the NKJV footnote says:
“Most likely, this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ and the completion of all things
(see verse 12). But some have interpreted this as referring to the completion of the NT canon.”
“For now we see in a mirror dimly” … the NKJV footnote refers to Philippians 3:12 …
“Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected;
but I press on that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.”
“face to face” … the NKJV footnote refers to 1 John 3:2 …
“Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be,
but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

The inevitable result of this major doctrinal change
There was a steadily-decreasing belief in this baptism and its’ resulting spiritual gifts.
Unbelief, and the lack of seeking these blessings, resulted in fewer and fewer people receiving them.
So, belief in the doctrine of the “second blessing”, and the knowledge that the spiritual gifts
had not passed away, spiraled downward, and a great many dry years followed …
until the early 1900’s when God began to fulfill Joel’s end-times prophecy (Joel 2:28-29).

 

[Episkopos]

Amen! In the words of Mr. Tozer...

• 
  
  
  
  "We must have a new reformation. There must come a violent break with the irresponsible, amusement-mad paganized pseudo-religion which passes today for the faith of Christ and which is being spread all over the world by unspiritual men employing unscriptural methods to achieve their ends."
  A.W. Tozer

 

[Axehead]

Amen! In the words of Mr. Tozer...

• "We must have a new reformation. There must come a violent break with the irresponsible, amusement-mad paganized pseudo-religion which passes today for the faith of Christ and which is being spread all over the world by unspiritual men employing unscriptural methods to achieve their ends."
  A.W. Tozer

Don't walk away, RUN. I broke with the False Church 30 years ago. God's people are breaking with it everyday as they hear their Groom calling and they eventually respond, At first it can be confusing because you think where you are is God ordained. Eventually, you gain understanding and light from the Lord and see the false church for what it is. Come unto ME is the call.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Axehead



Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

 

[mark s]

Spiritual Gifts and Signs and Wonders are two different things.

And the signs and wonders stopped during the times of the Apostles, not after.

 

[IanLC]

Signs and wonders accompanied the apostles yet Jesus did not constrain them to the apostles. There is no scripture in the bible that supports the idealism of Christian cessaitionts that claim spiritual gifts have ceased in this era. God's word is the same and never changes. Jesus declared in His name we would cast of devils, speak with other tongues (languages and glossalia), heal the sick, and overcome Satan (Mark 16). He sent the Holy Ghost to give us power to witness (Acts 1:8). The Apostle Paul writes all whole chapter+ on the proper use of spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 14) and spends time in other epistles discussing and implementing doctrine on spiritual gifts. The Apostle Paul nor did the other twelve apostles ever believe or consider that has the church progressed their would be no need of spiritual gifts. The gifts are for edification of the Church and empowerment to witness. It's not just tongues and prophecy but administration, discernment, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, interpretation of tongues (human languages and heavenly language), helps, mercy, humility, celibacy, faith, giving, etc. Spiritual gifts were key to the growth of the church. Proper use of the gifts combined with sound doctrinal teaching and evangelistic zealous preaching and ferverent prayer are the foundation and life sources of the Church. Gifts symbolize the power of Jesus, teaching the mind of Jesus, preaching the message of Jesus, and prayer the life style of Jesus. Open yourself to the power of the Holy Spirit and word of God and live in that spiritual fire and zeal!

 

[John Zain]

Signs and wonders accompanied the apostles yet Jesus did not constrain them to the apostles. There is no scripture in the bible that supports the idealism of Christian cessaitionts that claim spiritual gifts have ceased in this era. God's word is the same and never changes. Jesus declared in His name we would cast of devils, speak with other tongues (languages and glossalia), heal the sick, and overcome Satan (Mark 16). He sent the Holy Ghost to give us power to witness (Acts 1:8). The Apostle Paul writes all whole chapter+ on the proper use of spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 14) and spends time in other epistles discussing and implementing doctrine on spiritual gifts. The Apostle Paul nor did the other twelve apostles ever believe or consider that has the church progressed their would be no need of spiritual gifts. The gifts are for edification of the Church and empowerment to witness. It's not just tongues and prophecy but administration, discernment, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, interpretation of tongues (human languages and heavenly language), helps, mercy, humility, celibacy, faith, giving, etc. Spiritual gifts were key to the growth of the church.
Proper use of the gifts combined with sound doctrinal teaching and evangelistic zealous preaching and ferverent prayer are the foundation and life sources of the Church. Gifts symbolize the power of Jesus, teaching the mind of Jesus, preaching the message of Jesus, and prayer the life style of Jesus.
Open yourself to the power of the Holy Spirit and word of God and live in that spiritual fire and zeal!

WOW! ... that sure is worth repeating ... Thanks, and God bless!

 

[neophyte]

Jesus never made any mistakes when He formed His Church. He promised to always protect it from a total apostasy.[ Matt 16:18, 20:20 ]
So why is it that you don't trust the promise that Jesus made? Why do you believe that Satan has more power than Jesus to overtake Christ's Apostolic/Catholic Church ? Jesus only gave authority and power to His apostles [ Luke 10:16 ] and they to those who qualified and they to other qualified clergy right on down till He returns. Unbroken succession - Acts 1:15-26, 2Tim. 2:2; Titus 1:5.

 

[John Zain]

Jesus never made any mistakes when He formed His Church. He promised to always protect it from a total apostasy.
[ Matt 16:18, 20:20 ]
So why is it that you don't trust the promise that Jesus made?
Why do you believe that Satan has more power than Jesus to overtake Christ's Apostolic/Catholic Church ?
Jesus only gave authority and power to His apostles [ Luke 10:16 ] and they to those who qualified and they to other qualified clergy right on down till He returns. Unbroken succession - Acts 1:15-26, 2Tim. 2:2; Titus 1:5.

Who's talkin' about "total apostasy". etc.?

Yes, I've always wondered if all neophytes drank an unbroken succession of glasses of milk, or only you?

 

[neophyte]

Who's talkin' about "total apostasy". etc.?

Yes, I've always wondered if all neophytes drank an unbroken succession of glasses of milk, or only you?

Total apostasy -meaning that there has been apostates that departed from Christ's Church,Jesus never made any errors with the Church that He left us with ,albeit Jesus did say that His Church would contain both "good and bad" members.Unfortunately it has always been your religious ancestors that made a grevious error when they became apostates from His Church to run off and form their own man-made churches along with their off-shoot KJV cults. So you see Mr.Zane that the Catholic/Apostolic Church that Jesus left us with, along with it's doctrines have never changed, altered or have left out any doctrine for the past two -thousand years from its conception at Pentecost 1st century.
Christ's Catholic/Apostolic Church is covered by His promise found in Matt.16:18 and it will be the only Church that will greet Jesus when He returns
.Care to point out from the Holy Bible where Jesus gave His authority to your particular church founde ror to any other mere man or woman to form any other church different from His One True Catholic/Apostolic Church ? Surely that information must be found in the Bible for you, you being a staunch " Bible Alone "advocate, what ever happen to your favorite comment about "if it can't be verified from the Holy Bible ,forget it".

 

[Episkopos]

.Care to point out from the Holy Bible where Jesus gave His authority to your particular church founde ror to any other mere man or woman to form any other church different from His One True Catholic/Apostolic Church ?

People get hung up on labels. A church can be called something it isn't. So because a church is called "apostolic" does not mean that any other church cannot be or even that the one naming itself apostolic actually is.

Signs and wonders accompanied the apostles yet Jesus did not constrain them to the apostles. There is no scripture in the bible that supports the idealism of Christian cessaitionts that claim spiritual gifts have ceased in this era. God's word is the same and never changes. Jesus declared in His name we would cast of devils, speak with other tongues (languages and glossalia), heal the sick, and overcome Satan (Mark 16). He sent the Holy Ghost to give us power to witness (Acts 1:8). The Apostle Paul writes all whole chapter+ on the proper use of spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 14) and spends time in other epistles discussing and implementing doctrine on spiritual gifts. The Apostle Paul nor did the other twelve apostles ever believe or consider that has the church progressed their would be no need of spiritual gifts. The gifts are for edification of the Church and empowerment to witness. It's not just tongues and prophecy but administration, discernment, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, interpretation of tongues (human languages and heavenly language), helps, mercy, humility, celibacy, faith, giving, etc. Spiritual gifts were key to the growth of the church. Proper use of the gifts combined with sound doctrinal teaching and evangelistic zealous preaching and ferverent prayer are the foundation and life sources of the Church. Gifts symbolize the power of Jesus, teaching the mind of Jesus, preaching the message of Jesus, and prayer the life style of Jesus. Open yourself to the power of the Holy Spirit and word of God and live in that spiritual fire and zeal!

Oh yeah!!! :)

 

[IanLC]

Total apostasy -meaning that there has been apostates that departed from Christ's Church,Jesus never made any errors with the Church that He left us with ,albeit Jesus did say that His Church would contain both "good and bad" members.Unfortunately it has always been your religious ancestors that made a grevious error when they became apostates from His Church to run off and form their own man-made churches along with their off-shoot KJV cults. So you see Mr.Zane that the Catholic/Apostolic Church that Jesus left us with, along with it's doctrines have never changed, altered or have left out any doctrine for the past two -thousand years from its conception at Pentecost 1st century.
Christ's Catholic/Apostolic Church is covered by His promise found in Matt.16:18 and it will be the only Church that will greet Jesus when He returns
.Care to point out from the Holy Bible where Jesus gave His authority to your particular church founde ror to any other mere man or woman to form any other church different from His One True Catholic/Apostolic Church ? Surely that information must be found in the Bible for you, you being a staunch " Bible Alone "advocate, what ever happen to your favorite comment about "if it can't be verified from the Holy Bible ,forget it".

Catholic means universal and thus all churches are apart of the Catholic or universal church (Roman Catholic, Pentecostal, Methodist, Baptist,etc). We have different ways of expressing ourselves before God. But God looks at us as the same.

 

[veteran]

I still see miracles happen among those of Christ's Church today. And I'm not talking about the crazy spirits overtaking some today that claim that's of The Holy Spirit when it's not.

 

[IanLC]

I still see miracles happen among those of Christ's Church today. And I'm not talking about the crazy spirits overtaking some today that claim that's of The Holy Spirit when it's not.

I agree with you!

A renewal of revivalism in the heart of God's people nurtured by love will bring about the salvation of sinners. people are dying in their sins because we in the church are to busy arguing over doctrinal differences. We are judging others and placing legalistic binds on people. We are degrading fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and calling them demonic, crazy, unspiritual because they express worship to God differently then we do. Saints of God wake up and see who has bewitched us? [background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? (Galatians 5:1). I do not care if you do not speak in tongues or shout or dance in praise to God that is what i do and how I express myself to God. Jesus is not looking out our expressions of worship to Him he is looking at the heart of man and by that will we be condemned or justified. Men and women are dying in their sins and yet the church is sitting there fighting themselves. Wow we are the Church of Christ![/background]

 

[neophyte]

UHCAlan, your post #11 is incorrect. There was and still is only One Apostolic Church that Jesus formed on His Teaching Apostles, you do remember the apostles, don't you ? After all Jesus, in His approximately thirty-three years on this earth, only spent three years of His ministry teaching only His apostles, nobody else received the "Fullness of the Faith". Jesus is much more than a Holy Book "alone" read Luke 10:16 all power and authority was given to His Apostolic Church. Only the Catholic Church can claim Apostolic Teaching Succession for the past two-thousand years .Jesus formed only "one Church ,Jesus said "my church ''not plural and never did Jesus invent a mess of Protestant churches all in conlict with each other.
Only the Catholic Church has direct lineage from Jesus and His apostles , all the other churches are the invention of mere men and a few women.
Only two , the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Church can trace back to one of the original apostles, the EOC from the apostle Andrew and the Catholic Church from the apostle Peter. All of your non-apostolic ilk are derived from religious heretics that left behind the "Fullness of the Christian Faith" by incorporating mere men erroneous doctrinal matter, they adopted a "cafeteria/ smorgasbored style of church [ take what you like and leave the rest ] . Every time a new non-Catholic Church is invented or splits from another, it moves further and further away from the True Gospel.

 

[IanLC]

I disagree but I know in my soul that i'm saved, Holy Ghost filled, fire baptized, and on my way to Heaven to meet my Redeemer Jesus Christ. He aint looking at no denominational title or name. He's judging the heart! Thank you Jesus!

 

[John Zain]

From an Administrator in a Christian Forum …

I was once a Cessationist and I BATTLED AGAINST this topic... all I was doing was battling against God.
I surrendered... finally surrendered and a lot of what I wrote above is what He showed me and pointed out to me. I ignored and refused to accept all those scriptures and events I mention in this post while I was in bondage to the Cessationist doctrine(s). All those chapters might as well been removed from all the Bible's I had. When I surrendered, first seeing, and then understanding, and then accepted the truth of those scriptures followed. Until I threw away that man-made Cessationist doctrine... what God did in my heart "was not possible."The "cliche" about having "one's eye's opened"... well... when eyes ARE opened to the truth... they can't be closed again. My eyes were not opened and that cessationist doctrine ENSURED that they stayed closed to the truth of God's Word. Thus the very HARD period of surrender began some years ago.

 

[IanLC]

Praise God for that powerful testimony. Being Pentecostal I has to release some beliefs that not all emotional expression is led by the Spirit of God. We need a balance of both the Spirit and Truth!

 

[brightmorningstar]

And of course the great commission that Jesus instructed Mark 16 and Matthew 28 was to make disciples and teach to obey everything Jesus had commanded. [sup]17 [/sup]And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; [sup]18 [/sup]they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

So when we see signs and wonders through Acts and the epistles we know these are for all believrs to come. Indeed Jesus said greater things would be done.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

My feeling is that we often make a fundamental mistake trying to define how we should conduct our Christian lives.

We are not the 12 Apostles .... and should not expect to be able to do all the things they did. .... The 12 Apostles are unique .... even to the end of time ..... and then into eternity ....

eg: ....... (the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God) ....... the wall of the city had twelve foundations, ...... and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. ( from Revelation 21)

======================

Now I make my point ..... As Christian Believers we are the recipients of the teachings of the 12 Apostles , and the recipients of the gospel brought by Jesus .... that is the whole purpose . Why do we keep trying to add stuff ? Why complicate the Gospel ?

Once we are Christian believers we have done what we were supposed to do , period .... as I said it is a fundamental mistake for us to now think we are the super Church builders and should be miracle workers with all kinds of signs and powers.

We are trying too hard to be religious .... whereas we are simply called to be believers. It is as simple as that. thanks.

================

In modern day Jesus continues to build His church on the foundations taught by The Apostles , certainly he uses us Believers from time to time to accomplish it , certainly we should evangelize a bit and reach out to others .... but we are the sheep , we are not the Shepherd.

 

[aspen]

One of the problems with an over emphasis on spiritual gifts and charism is that it can lead to heresy. In the Early Church it was Montanism and today we have seen the 'drunk in the spirit' heresy and the snake handlers.