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A unique view on the book of Revelation.

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by justbyfaith, Nov 3, 2018.

  1. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You omitted an integral part of this verse at the end ("...which is in Heaven").

    This verse is repeatedly misinterpreted to mean that no saint is in Heaven. But that is not what Christ was saying at all. He was confirming the fact that the Son of Man is unique both in His incarnation and His ascension to Heaven. He is unlike any other man who has ever lived.

    1. He is not just the Son of Man but the Son of God.
    2. He was with the Father in Heaven from eternity past (as God the Word).
    3. He came to earth from Heaven in His incarnation, and would also ascend back to Heaven after He finished His work of redemption.
    4. There is no human being who would be resurrected as He was resurrected, according to His own precise prophesies.
    5. Even though He is speaking on earth, He is also in Heaven in Spirit.

    When you say that Elijah did not go directly to Heaven you are CONTRADICTING Scripture. While it is not that clear for Enoch (the word "Heaven" is not there), it is perfectly clear to those who have eyes to see.

    And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal...And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:1,11)

    As you can see, these two verses shoot down your unbiblical theory that no man is in Heaven. Indeed ALL the OT and NT saints are in Heaven, but you will not believe that Scripture either, since you have some seriously flawed beliefs.
     
  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought here.

    The Bible says the first man was Adam and the second man was Jesus.

    So in that context Jesus is a human in this reference, the second human.

    Remember you have to deal with Enoch and Elijah who were already taken to heaven flesh and blood. So there has to be a distinction.
     
  3. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    I take everything into account. I simply did not mention the pints you just brought up yet.

    Hebrews 11:32 – And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
    Here we read about the prophets who lived by faith and died without receiving the promise. Eliyah was surely one of those prophets. But to be certain let’s look at what happened to him in 2 Kings 2:1,11 .

    And it came about when Yahweh was about to take up Eliyah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Eliyah went with Elisha from Gilgal…As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Eliyah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
    If Yeshua the Messiah said “no man has ascended to heaven,” then what heaven are these scriptures talking about? The Bible mentions three heavens. The first heaven is Earth’s atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20); The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:16,17); The third heaven is what the Apostle Paul calls “paradise” in II Corinthians 12:2-4. It is where Yahweh and the heavenly sanctuary exist.

    Eliyah was caught up to the first heaven where birds fly and was transported to another location on Earth. Notice vss. 15 & 16;

    Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho opposite him saw him, they said, “The spirit of Eliyah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him and bowed themselves to the ground before him. They said to him, “Behold now, there are with your servants fifty strong men, please let them go and search for your master; perhaps the Spirit of Yahweh has taken him up and cast him on some mountain or into some valley.” And he said, “You shall not send.”
    The sons of the prophets, who knew Eliyah would be taken away (vss. 3,5), believed that Eliyah was taken to another location. They didn’t think he went to the third heaven.

    A similar incident to Eliyah’s took place in Acts 8:39,40;

    When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.
    Phillip was caught up into the first heaven, as Eliyah was, and was transported to another location approximately 30 miles away. Eliyah may not have been found because he was transported farther away than the fifty men searched (vs. 17).

    Proof that Eliyah did not die, but was transported, is found in II Chronicles 21:12-15.

    Then a letter came to him from Eliyah the prophet saying, “Thus says Yahweh Elohim of your father David, ‘Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah, but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have caused Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot as the house of Ahab played the harlot, and you have also killed your brothers, your own family, who were better than you, behold, Yahweh is going to strike your people, your sons, your wives and all your possessions with a great calamity; and you will suffer severe sickness, a disease of your bowels, until your bowels come out because of the sickness, day by day.'”
    From the wording of this letter it is clear that Eliyah wrote it after the events occurred for he speaks of them as past events, and of the disease as a future event. This letter was written by Eliyah more than four years after he was taken up to the first heaven. The Bible does not reveal how much longer Eliyah lived after writing the letter but it does say in Hebrews 9:27 that it is appointed unto men to die once.
     
  4. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 5:21-24 – Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. Then Enoch walked with Elohim three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with Elohim; and he was not, for Elohim took him.
    These verses do not tell us much except that Enoch’s days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth as Eliyah was?

    Consider Psalm 37:35,36 and Psalm 39:12,13;

    “I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.”
    “Hear my prayer, O Yahweh, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were. O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more.”

    The Hebrew for the underlined phrases is the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24; “And Enoch walked with Elohim: and he was not; for Elohim took him.” As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person “passed away” or would eventually die. Consider also Genesis 42:13 and Genesis 44:20;

    “And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not.”
    This was spoken of Joseph by his brothers. What did they mean by “is not”?

    “And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loves him.”
    Here the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharoah. When they first said, “and one is not,” they meant Joseph “is dead.” Finally, consider Matthew 2:18;

    “In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.”
    Where are Rachel’s children? Dead.

    Hebrews 11:5 – By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
    Does the phrase “should not see death” mean Enoch never died? Let’s read the first three words of Hebrews 11:4,5,7,8,11 and 13; “By faith …”, “These all died” . Everyone mentioned in the previous verses died including Enoch. But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (vs. 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn’t he have received that promise? The fact is, Enoch is not in heaven but is dead in the grave awaiting his resurrection along with every other saint.

    Psalm 89:47,48 – Remember how short my time is: why have you made all men in vain? What man is he that lives and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
    Why would the Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked the question.

    So what does the phrase “should not see death” mean? In Luke 2:25-29 we see that phrase to mean that Simeon would not die a physical death or what is known as “the first death.”

    And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death, before he had seen Yahweh’s Messiah.
    Without any further Bible study we would be led to believe Enoch never died and is still alive in heaven. But let’s look at John 8:51.

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
    Here the phrase “shall never see death” must mean “the second death” since all the Apostles, including Paul, kept Yeshua’s sayings and yet died the first death.

    Now we must decide whether the phrase “should not see death”, as it applies to Enoch, means the first or second death. Based on Hebrews 9:27 and 11:13 we must conclude that he died the first death prematurely so that he should not see the second death.

    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12,14 says all men die because all have sinned. Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin or that the curse for sinning did not apply to him? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Messiah could enter heaven and dwell in Yahweh’s presence?

    If Enoch did not die and was not taken to heaven, then where was he translated to and what does “translation” mean? According to Strong’s, Thayer’s and Bullinger’s Greek Lexicons, “translate” means “to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer.” The same Greek word was used in Acts 7:16 where Jacob’s body was “translated” or “carried over” to Sychem to be buried. Yahweh took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. Moses’ body was never found and neither was Enoch’s because Yahweh hid them for reasons known only to Him.

    I Corinthians 15:20-23 – But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah’s at his coming.
    All die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly precede him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.

    And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    To be able to dwell in heaven we must be changed from a flesh and blood natural body to a spiritual heavenly body. That change does not take place until the last trumpet.

    Let’s read John 3:13 again.

    And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    I did not say "no man is in heaven". At the time Yeshua said those words in John 3:13, no man was in heaven yet.
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The context of a verse never contradicts the plain meaning of the verse.

    It is clear to me that Elijah was caught up into heaven and was not translated to another place on earth; because the other prophets searched for him thinking it might be the case; and also did not find him.

    By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death...this means exactly what it says...that Enoch didn't die. Hebrews 11:5, therefore, is an exception to the rule of Hebrews 11:13; just as there must be an exception to a rule when comparing Luke 1:37 (kjv) and Hebrews 6:4 (kjv).

    But I would ask you, why does this doctrine mean so much to you? It seems like you are going to a lot of trouble trying to prove it; and it isn't even faithful.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    On this issue.

    No human being came down from heaven to start arrives. Only the second person of the Trinity descended to become human.

    I think that point is being missed.
     
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    I gave you plenty of Scripture, but you seem to have a hard time admitting you are wrong. I am not the one who brought up this subject about Enoch and Elijah. Enoch111 did. I simply corrected him. I try to prove my view because by doing so, I make Yeshua and his apostles speaking truth rather than lies. The common Christian view contradicts Scripture all because they insist on a superficial interpretation of the Word so they can support a false rapture doctrine.
     
  9. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    What does that have to do with anything? We are discussing flesh and blood men going to heaven without dying, not who came down from heaven.
     
  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    It has everything to do with it. The verse says no man went up that didn't first come down. Who else has come down and then returned?

    Unless you change subjects it never said flesh and blood men.

    If you change subjects I missed it.
     
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    We who are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

    That is in scripture.

    So the rapture doctrine isn't false: it is a certainty that is going to happen someday.
     
  12. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    You left out the most important word, "Then".
     
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