Actually Jesus returns twice...

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, but he never says he takes anyone back to heaven. He returns and stays here.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you." that is regarding those who die while Christ is in heaven. Jesus will eventually leave heaven: "I will come again". That is the second coming and here is the important thing: "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


So where is Christ after "I will come again and receive you unto myself"? Earth. He is no longer in heaven.


"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


This is what Jesus said. This is what some think he said:


"I will come again and receive you unto myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN; that where I am, there ye may be also."


He also did NOT say, "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I USED TO BE, there ye may be also."

He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.

Also in the same chapter:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Christ isn't returning to take anyone up to heaven to live with him and the Father but the opposite! The Father and Christ will end up coming here to make their abode on Earth with us! That's the opposite of the false pre-trib teaching!

Lol
You got owned in your one coming deal.
The uturn back to earth is lame.
That gross error is invented and debunked.
Three distinct comings.
Rev 14:14
Rev 19
1 thess 4.

Literally impossible to blenderize the 3 comings into one.
The one in Rev 14 VIVID VIVID DEPICTION.
It is comical watching you guys wiggle around it.
Why change revelation???
A forbidden book
You should respect the word of God and cease all that modifying.

 

[CrowCross]

Your uturn back to earth is made up big time.

In rev 19 the saints are in heaven and the bride is now the wife.
Meaning the marriage supper is over and was in heaven.
Then you misquoted Jesus saying "where i am you may be also."
You twisted it.
In the virgin parable the bride goes into the marriage chamber.
In your model they do a uturn back to the bride's house.
Jesus said in my Father's house are many mansions. I go and prepare a place for you.
Jesus said " i will not drink of the cup again until I drink it anew with you, in my Father's kingdom".

The one coming error made you twist all of that.

They seem to intentionally omit these little biblical facts....then claim we are presenting a false gospel.

 

[rebuilder 454]

They seem to intentionally omit these little biblical facts....then claim we are presenting a false gospel.

We own end times.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If anyone starts their end times position on "one coming" , they got a long road ahead, to reframe God's word into explaining the 3 comings dynamic away.
A really hard job.

 

[CrowCross]

If anyone starts their end times position on "one coming" , they got a long road ahead, to reframe God's word into explaining the 3 comings dynamic away.
A really hard job.

To be honest this is the first time I heard of 3 post resurrection comings of Jesus.
How do you present Rev 14:14 as one of three comings?

 

[David in NJ]

This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw.
This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book:
If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints.

 

[CrowCross]

This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soona come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book:
If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints.

....and?????

 

[rebuilder 454]

To be honest this is the first time I heard of 3 post resurrection comings of Jesus.
How do you present Rev 14:14 as one of three comings?

It is Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle during the trib.
It is not rev 19 second coming.
Rev 14 is a Jewish gathering.
(Ethnic Jewish 144,000 firstfruits), then vs 14 is Jewish main harvest.
1 thes 4, mat 25, and mat24 (one taken, one left), are all the church pretrib rapture.
The Church rapture is via Jesus (the firstfruits of the church harvest)

So in the first gathering, the rapture of the church, there is firstfuits ( Jesus)
In the Jewish harvest,second gathering,the 144,000 are the firstfruits.
The third coming is rev 19 on the white horses.
Postribbers SKIP EVERY BIT OF THAT.
THEY GET A ZERO.
THEY HAVE EVERY SINGLE COMPONENT MESSED UP.
All that, that i just explained, is hidden in plain sight.
That is why mentally ingesting the bible leads to massive error.

Where they get off is actually their starting point.
They actually start from an idea.
That idea is they cast down the pretrib rapture.
They do NOT start from scripture.
Why do they omit such a massive amount of verses?????
Because they did not investigate.
Their folly is called "condemnation prior to investigation"

 

[rebuilder 454]

Connect the dots.
Very simple.

 

[The Light]

To be honest this is the first time I heard of 3 post resurrection comings of Jesus.
How do you present Rev 14:14 as one of three comings?

Actually, there are 5 comings of the Lord.

1. The dead in Christ rise first. This is the barley harvest of Pentecost.

2. The Lord Himself comes for the alive that remain. This is the wheat harvest of the Feast of New Wine, which occurs 50 days AFTER Pentecost. This is the true Pentecost when the Church received the Holy Spirit. Only believers that are watching and ready will see the Lord at these first two comings. These comings are found in 1 Thes 4.

3. Then immediately after the great tribulation the Lord will come for the mostly Jewish believers as their eyes will be opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. This occurs at the 6th seal and is seen in Revelation 14:14-19. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

4. Jesus returns with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath, 7th trumpet / 7th vial, Armageddon.

5. Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives and sets up the millennial kingdom.

 

[David in NJ]

Actually, there are 5 comings of the Lord.

At least 10 comings of the LORD

Actually there will be 12 as each of the 12 "comings" represent each of the 12 Apostles.

God will place the saints accordingly to the 12 Apostles = 12 Raptures

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually, there are 5 comings of the Lord.

1. The dead in Christ rise first. This is the barley harvest of Pentecost.

2. The Lord Himself comes for the alive that remain. This is the wheat harvest of the Feast of New Wine, which occurs 50 days AFTER Pentecost. This is the true Pentecost when the Church received the Holy Spirit. Only believers that are watching and ready will see the Lord at these first two comings. These comings are found in 1 Thes 4.

3. Then immediately after the great tribulation the Lord will come for the mostly Jewish believers as their eyes will be opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. This occurs at the 6th seal and is seen in Revelation 14:14-19. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

4. Jesus returns with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath, 7th trumpet / 7th vial, Armageddon.

5. Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives and sets up the millennial kingdom.

1 and 2 are the same coming.
4 and 5 are Rev 19. Coming
Rev 14 coming is during the 7 yr trib.
3 separate comings.

 

[Davidpt]

In order to do that they had to be in heaven...which they are being raptured prior to the tribulation.

Guess who else is in heaven with Jesus before He is seen returning in ch 19? The dead in Christ are there, and the dead in Christ is not meaning raptured Pretribbers. Therefore, why can't the dead in Christ explain who is leaving heaven with Jesus at the time? As in this---them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And guess what? To bring someone with someone can equal a return to somewhere else. For example. Joe wil be bringing his wife with him when he returns to Dallas, TX to have Thanksgiving with his family this November.

Pretribbers want it to mean Jesus brings the dead in Christ with Him in order to bring them back to where they already were, heaven in this case. Thus a uturn, thus no rhyme nor reason why He brings them with Him to begin with. To accomplish exactly what??

 

[rebuilder 454]

Guess who else is in heaven with Jesus before He is seen returning in ch 19? The dead in Christ are there, and the dead in Christ is not meaning raptured Pretribbers. Therefore, why can't the dead in Christ explain who is leaving heaven with Jesus at the time? As in this---them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And guess what? To bring someone with someone can equal a return to somewhere else. For example. Joe wil be bringing his wife with him when he returns to Dallas, TX to have Thanksgiving with his family this November.

Pretribbers want it to mean Jesus brings the dead in Christ with Him in order to bring them back to where they already were, heaven in this case. Thus a uturn, thus no rhyme nor reason why He brings them with Him to begin with. To accomplish exactly what??

Nope.
Jesus is firstfruits of the resurrection.
To understand what is going on, That dynamic HAS TO BE FACTORED IN.
IOW, the question at the heart of purpose, is why is a glorified BODY necessary?
Why not just leave the spirits in heaven as spirits?
Once that is on the table, truth becomes a pursuit.
Jesus has become the God man. The God man is the firstfruits.
A resurrected Jesus in heaven with a body.
A firstfruits Jesus resurrected TO HEAVEN.
PARADISE SAINTS, PRE CROSS SAINTS , also as FIRSTFRIUITS, resurrected to heaven, having responded to Jesus preaching in hades.
Pre cross resurrected saints to heaven.
Firstfruits ....to heaven BODILY.
.
Then, at the rapture, Main harvest resurrected saints following TO HEAVEN as main harvest.
( always, firstfruits GAURANTEES MAIN HARVRST)
THEREFORE it becomes NECESSARY for main harvest church to be in heaven as spirits WITH GLORIFIED BODIES.

WHY ?
For the marriage supper in heaven .

Why did those in paradise NEED a glorified body?
They went to heaven with Jesus.
They were dead pre cross saints, becoming CHRISTIANS, and raised from the dead, following Jesus TO HEAVEN AS FIRSTFRUITS, in resurrected bodies.

Main harvest saints will DO THE SAME.
SAME harvest, to heaven, (but not firstfruits), in resurrected bodies.

If FIRSTFRUITS IS EVER UNDERSTOOD, and placed back on the table, end times unfolds like a beam of light.

Without firstfruits understanding the dots will never be connected in order.

Put firstfruits on the table ,ALONGSIDE, the bride, groom, and ALL THE RAPTURE VERSES, and understanding will get it's first chance.

This dynamic is so hidden...but so hidden in plain sight.

Almost nobody PUTS all components on the table...or cares about it.
They are so focused on "effect", the cause is never even bothered with.
Elusive, unnecessary, misunderstanding, due to mens limited knowledge, and inability to even care about investigation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

....and?????

"Dave nj", just Willie nillie throws out verses without even knowing himself what he is doing.

Flat out bizarre.

 

[CrowCross]

Guess who else is in heaven with Jesus before He is seen returning in ch 19? The dead in Christ are there, and the dead in Christ is not meaning raptured Pretribbers. Therefore, why can't the dead in Christ explain who is leaving heaven with Jesus at the time? As in this---them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And guess what? To bring someone with someone can equal a return to somewhere else. For example. Joe wil be bringing his wife with him when he returns to Dallas, TX to have Thanksgiving with his family this November.

Pretribbers want it to mean Jesus brings the dead in Christ with Him in order to bring them back to where they already were, heaven in this case. Thus a uturn, thus no rhyme nor reason why He brings them with Him to begin with. To accomplish exactly what??

The U-turn is seen when Jesus talks about the many dwellings in heaven that he's building....where He comes back then takes us there.

I consider your post...refuted.

There are many hurdles the a-mills can't get over.

 

[CrowCross]

1 and 2 are the same coming.
4 and 5 are Rev 19. Coming
Rev 14 coming is during the 7 yr trib.
3 separate comings.

One of the purposes of this thread was to show there is more than one return of Christ Jesus. I would also say that is biblically undeniable. There is more than one return of Jesus.

Then you brought up Rev 14. My initial thought was to push back...As the description is "like the son of man" Not "the" son of man...then I read Daniel 7.

13“I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.

This Dan 13 verse about Jesus pretty much matches Rev 14....14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, .....The verse continues and certainly doesn't come close to matching the verses of Christ return in Rev 19. Rev 14 also lacks a white horse. In fact the verse is closer in resemblance to 1 Thes 4:16ish than Rev 19:11.
Thing is, when Jesus ascended and returns in the same way...

So we know Rev 14 isn't Rev 19...but could it be 1 Thes 4? I'm leaning towards, no.
If Revelation is in a chronological order this event is after the mark of the beast decree in the previous chapter.

Could Rev 14 be....Mark 14:62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” From that description the answer is yes.

We also know when Jesus left He wasn't reaping like Rev 14 describes...

As of this moment rebuilder 454 I'm not 100% convinced....but by you presenting Rev 14 as a 3rd return....you moved the needle.

Wha I have failed to see is the a-mill opinion Jesus returns once merge all the description into one event.

 

[The Light]

1 and 2 are the same coming.

Yeah. That's what I used to think.

Here in the Song of Solomon we can find the dead in Christ rising first in the spring. We can also see this is a secret rapture. This is the barley harvest which is the spring harvest.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

The season changes to summer as the vines of the tender grape give a good smell. This is no longer spring. This is the summer harvest of the alive that remained, the wheat harvest. We can see this is also a secret rapture.

Song of Solomon 2
13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

4 and 5 are Rev 19. Coming

Yeah, I used to think the same thing.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

In a week there are 6 days of work and one day of rest. In creation there are six thousand years and a 1000 years of rest. In the final 7 years there will be 6 years and a final year of rest.

Jesus will return with the armies of heaven after the 1 year wrath of God. Then the final year of the 7 will be the Day of Atonement. Then Jesus will set up the millennial kingdom.

Rev 14 coming is during the 7 yr trib.

There is no 7 year tribulation. There is a final week that begins when a covenant with many is signed. As for Revelation 14, this occurs immediately after the tribulation when Jesus send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

3 separate comings.

5 according to the Word of God.

 

[The Light]

So we know Rev 14 isn't Rev 19...but could it be 1 Thes 4? I'm leaning towards, no.

Revelation 14 is 1 Cor 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman. This occurs at the 6th seal and is also seen here

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If Revelation is in a chronological order this event is after the mark of the beast decree in the previous chapter.

Revelation is not in chronological order. Revelation is written like Genesis 7. In Genesis 7 we get 3 different views of Noah loading the animals and three different views of the flood. Each view has different information. And yet Noah only loads the animals once and there is one flood.

When you are reading Revelation, we get 2 different views of the first six seals and 2 different views of the 7th seal wrath of God.

Revelation 6 is a view of the 1st six seals. Revelation 8-11 is a view of the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st six seals. Its just more information about this same timeframe. Revelation 14 concludes with the coming of Jesus for a harvest of the 12 tribes (not the nation of Israel) This happens at the 6th seal as proven by the signs of the sun, moon and stars of Matthew 24.

When you are reading Revelation 8-11 you are in the wrath of God. You get another view of this same timeframe in Revelation 16. In other words the 7 trumpets and 7 vials occur in the same timeframe which is the 7th seal.

 

[CrowCross]

Revelation 14 is 1 Cor 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

???? I'm not following you....Where does Rev 14 mention anything like 1 Cor 15. Perhaps it's there but I missed it.

This is the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman. This occurs at the 6th seal and is also seen here

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation is not in chronological order. Revelation is written like Genesis 7. In Genesis 7 we get 3 different views of Noah loading the animals and three different views of the flood. Each view has different information. And yet Noah only loads the animals once and there is one flood.

When you are reading Revelation, we get 2 different views of the first six seals and 2 different views of the 7th seal wrath of God.

Revelation 6 is a view of the 1st six seals. Revelation 8-11 is a view of the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st six seals. Its just more information about this same timeframe. Revelation 14 concludes with the coming of Jesus for a harvest of the 12 tribes (not the nation of Israel) This happens at the 6th seal as proven by the signs of the sun, moon and stars of Matthew 24.

When you are reading Revelation 8-11 you are in the wrath of God. You get another view of this same timeframe in Revelation 16. In other words the 7 trumpets and 7 vials occur in the same timeframe which is the 7th seal.

Sounds like you're playing Chutes and Ladders.