Actually Jesus returns twice...

[The Light]

...and you can dodge the points i made.
It does not go away.

Please. I think I addressed all the points you made. I don't need to dodge anything.

The ac is just one of the horsemen that you claim puts the church through "their" trib, and then you place the rapture AFTER "their trib" in a war torn, population massacre.

Where do you get this stuff? That is not what I said at all.

THE CHURCH IS IN HEAVEN BEFORE THE SEALS ARE OPENED!!!!!

You continually draw false conclusions and then make false acusations.

You insert :"false christ", magically into the hand of the AC, who is CARRYING A BOW, diverting the bow/covenant dimension.
You made that up .

Is the Antichrist not a false Christ.

Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

I'm not making anything up.

Nope.
The rapture setting is normal life, peacetime, planning for the future.
Plain...overly plain the rapture is pre seals.

The rapture of the Church IS BEFORE THE SEALS ARE OPENED. However, it is not before the final week begins.

So plain and simple, yes the rapture of the Church is before the seals are opened.

No 6th seal rapture.

The signs of the sun, moon and stars...........PROVE A 6TH SEAL RAPTURE. It is the second rapture that you are aware of. Why do you think there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7? ................many of whom came out of great tribulation.

How can you understand there is a second rapture and not understand that it occurs at the 6th seal? BELIEVERS ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.

Why would you have believers going through the 7th seal wrath of God?

That is postrib doctrine.

No. Post trib thinks the 6th seal is the 7th trumpet. They beat everything into place because they can't figure it out.

 

[The Light]

LOL...now that's a new one.

Where do you get this stuff from????

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

 

[The Light]

How do you get two raptures of out THE DAY when the Son of Man is revealed? If your view was true, Jesus would have said "Even so will it be in the DAYS the Son of Man is revealed".

I don't. I get one rapture that will be like the days of Noah at the trump of God or voice of God and one rapture like the days of Lot at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets..

The Son of man is revealed at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 some of whom come out of great tribulation.

 

[The Light]

HALFWAY through the 7 yr trib.
3.5 yr mark.

In a model of a mid 7 yr trib rapture we would know within a day the rapture date.

I know a 7 year tribulation is taught. However, there is no scripture that proves a 7 year tribulation. The tribulation starts in the middle of the week when the AOD is set up.

The Church is not raptured in the middle of the week, it is raptured before. But after the final week has begun.

 

[The Light]

Mid trib rapture.
Not in bible.

The Church is raptured before the great tribulation. No scripture says the Church is raptured before the final week begins.

Unless it is the Jewish rapture of rev 14

The Jewish rapture occurs at the 6th seal IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. It is the second coming when the Lord comes in power and glory and sends the angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't. I get one rapture that will be like the days of Noah at the trump of God or voice of God and one rapture like the days of Lot at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets..

The Son of man is revealed at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 some of whom come out of great tribulation.

You're not addressing what I'm saying. Again...

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

What is Jesus saying here that it will be like in the days leading up to "the DAY when the Son of Man is revealed"? He was saying that the days prior to the DAY of His revealing would be both like the days of Noah before the flood came and the days of Lot before Sodom was destroyed. So, how can the DAY of His revealing refer to TWO DIFFERENT DAYS when two different raptures will supposedly occur? Please address this question directly.

 

[The Light]

You're not addressing what I'm saying. Again...

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

What is Jesus saying here that it will be like in the days leading up to "the DAY when the Son of Man is revealed"? He was saying that the days prior to the DAY of His revealing would be both like the days of Noah before the flood came and the days of Lot before Sodom was destroyed. So, how can the DAY of His revealing refer to TWO DIFFERENT DAYS when two different raptures will supposedly occur? Please address this question directly.

You are not understanding what He is saying. He is not saying that He will be revealed when it's like the days of Noah.

He is saying that when He is revealed, it will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. You probably don't understand this because you think that the 7th seal is silence in heaven and not the day wrath.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are not understanding what He is saying. He is not saying that He will be revealed when it's like the days of Noah.

He is saying that it will be like the days of Noah and like the days of Lot in the days before the day He is revealed. What was it like in those days? People were just going about their normal lives and had no clue what was coming and the next thing they knew they were killed. That is how it will be when Jesus returns. Paul taught the same thing in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 where he said people will be saying peace and safety and the next thing they know they will experience "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night.

He is saying that when He is revealed, it will be like the days of Lot.

And the days of Noah. In each case, people had no clue was to the wrath of God that was about to come upon them. That's how it will be leading up to the day Jesus returns.

The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. You probably don't understand this because you think that the 7th seal is silence in heaven and not the day wrath.

You don't understand anything. You are butchering the text. In no way, shape or form did Jesus teach two raptures. That is utterly ludicrous.

Also, I do see the 7th seal as the day of wrath, so what are you talking about? There will be silence in heaven because Jesus, the souls of the dead in Christ and the angels will have just left heaven at that point, after which the rapture occurs and Jesus takes vengeance on all unbelievers (1 Thess 4:14-5:4, 2 Thess 1:7-10).

 

[CrowCross]

I don't. I get one rapture that will be like the days of Noah at the trump of God or voice of God and one rapture like the days of Lot at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets..

The Son of man is revealed at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 some of whom come out of great tribulation.

Do you prefer mid trib or pre-wrath?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you prefer mid trib or pre-wrath?

He probably likes both equally well since he believes in two raptures. LOL.

 

[The Light]

1 and 2 are the same coming.
4 and 5 are Rev 19. Coming
Rev 14 coming is during the 7 yr trib.
3 separate comings.

@rebuilder 454

You are correct about number 4 and 5 both occurring at the coming of Jesus in Revelation 19.

Here is the scriptural proof.

Zechariah 14:1-4
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

That leaves 4 comings.

 

[The Light]

Do you prefer mid trib or pre-wrath?

Mid trib would not be correct as there is no 7 year tribulation.

The Church will be raptured pretrib.

The second rapture would be pre wrath.

In all reality, it is really post trib as the Lord will come and send His angels to gather the elect immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal. This is really post trib, but post tribbers do not realize they are post wrath. Therefore, the Lord will come at the 6th seal prewrath.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Actually Jesus returns twice...

Acts 1:
11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

In verse 9 we see a description....9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

In 1 Thes 4 we read about the resurrection/rapture (caught up) event.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Jesus simply ascended into the clouds...nothing spectacular. At the resurrection rapture event Jesus returns in the clouds the same way He left.

When we get to Rev 19 we see a different description of the return of Jesus....
11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

In Mark 16:19–20; Luke 24:50–53 there is no mention of a white horse. if Jesus ascended into heaven on a white horse surely Luke or Mark would have mentioned it.

There are obviously 2 returns as two distinctly different description are provided in the bible to read.

The pre-trib return...
In Luke 17 Jesus provides a description and relates it to the days of Noah and Lot
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jesus told us... "People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building." If you think about it if Jesus only returns once at the end of the great tribulation....considering what the world has just gone through I don't think people will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building. BUT...in the pre-trib return scenario it describes what it is like today...people ARE eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building.

It fits with the two different resurrections mentioned.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please provide scriptural proof that Jesus comes back at the beginning of the week.

Is Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood?


And yet, when the world was created, He ended His work on the 6th day and rested on the 7th day.

And yet, we are told to work 6 days a week and rest on the 7th day.

And yet, there will be 6000 years of history and then the 1000 year millennial kingdom will be set up.

What do you think happens on the final 7 years?

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

And there is no 7 year tribulation.

The Church will be raptured before the great tribulation. And the door will be shut to the foolish virgins that are not WATCHING and READY for His coming.


Correct. Those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection will remain on the earth during the great tribulation and also they will remain on the earth during the wrath of God which is the 7th seal.

The seed of the woman, those that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ will be raptured at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation and will be in heaven for the marriage supper during the one year wrath of God. At the end of the year, the armies of heaven will return for Armageddon.

QUOTE
"Please provide scriptural proof that Jesus comes back at the beginning of the week."

Daniel 9: 27
the AC desecrates the temple HALFWAY THROUGH THE 7 YR TRIB.

Daniel 9:27 ( literal)
....EV TH ἡμίσει της εβδομάδος ἀρθήσεται θυσία Ka
in the half ofthe period of seven shall be lifted away _ sacrifice and σπονδή καὶι επί TO τερόν βδέλυγμα τῶν libation [offering], and upon the — temple an abomination of the EPNUMGEWV ἔσται και EWS της συντελξίας καιρού desolations...

Beyond clear. HALFWAY through the 7 yr trib the AOD IS DESCECRATING THE TEMPLE.

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL...now that's a new one.

Where do you get this stuff from????

He needs the Noah analogy to be one coming and the lot analogy to be a different one.
The error stems from taking the word "tribulation" in mat 24 and making it into a non 7 yr period.
That is the root of His entire doctrine.
A word definition.
That starting point makes up his progression into his doctrine.
Including Jesus coming back 1 yr before the end of the 7 yr trib, and Jesus being here DURING THE WRATH part.
I have been debating/ studying end times a since 1978.
Always hooked up with the best teachers and tons of hours of research.
I have never seen his interpretation.
I even researched the web.
Nobody parallels his teaching, that I have found.
Nobody.

 

[CrowCross]

He needs the Noah analogy to be one coming and the lot analogy to be a different one.
The error stems from taking the word "tribulation" in mat 24 and making it into a non 7 yr period.
That is the root of His entire doctrine.
A word definition.
That starting point makes up his progression into his doctrine.
Including Jesus coming back 1 yr before the end of the 7 yr trib, and Jesus being here DURING THE WRATH part.
I have been debating/ studying end times a since 1978.
Always hooked up with the best teachers and tons of hours of research.
I have never seen his interpretation.
I even researched the web.
Nobody parallels his teaching, that I have found.
Nobody.

I was checking this Thomas Ice site out yesterday....lots of Good pre-tribulation info in the 4 video's.

 

[The Light]

QUOTE
"Please provide scriptural proof that Jesus comes back at the beginning of the week."

Daniel 9: 27
the AC desecrates the temple HALFWAY THROUGH THE 7 YR TRIB.

Daniel 9:27 ( literal)
....EV TH ἡμίσει της εβδομάδος ἀρθήσεται θυσία Ka
in the half ofthe period of seven shall be lifted away _ sacrifice and σπονδή καὶι επί TO τερόν βδέλυγμα τῶν libation [offering], and upon the — temple an abomination of the EPNUMGEWV ἔσται και EWS της συντελξίας καιρού desolations...

Beyond clear. HALFWAY through the 7 yr trib the AOD IS DESCECRATING THE TEMPLE.

Wow. You have provided not one shred of evidence that the Church is raptured before the week begins and not one shred of evidence that there is a 7 year tribulation.

 

[The Light]

He needs the Noah analogy to be one coming and the lot analogy to be a different one.
The error stems from taking the word "tribulation" in mat 24 and making it into a non 7 yr period.
That is the root of His entire doctrine.

I don't need anything. I deal is facts and the fact Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood is one of many proofs that the Church is not in heaven 7 years before the final week.

A word definition.
That starting point makes up his progression into his doctrine.
Including Jesus coming back 1 yr before the end of the 7 yr trib, and Jesus being here DURING THE WRATH part.

And yet you seem unable to understand the difference between the great tribulation and the one year wrath of God.

I have been debating/ studying end times a since 1978.
Always hooked up with the best teachers and tons of hours of research.
I have never seen his interpretation.
I even researched the web.
Nobody parallels his teaching, that I have found.
Nobody.

And yet who taught you that there are two raptures. What site did you learn this from?

Is two raptures in error because most do not understand this Biblical fact?

Why you are unable to see that the second rapture occurs at the 6th seal is a puzzle. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.