AD 66-70 and the Olivet Discourse

[Zao is life]

So some have suggested that the temple that Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse, was His own body. So before I post the account of one of the most reliable historians who lived through those days and the signs that were reported as being seen in the sky and in the temple, let me just address this suggestion.

The temple Jesus was talking to His disciples about in the Olivet Discourse, was the temple they had introduced, saying how magnificent it was (the buildings of the temple). All three synoptic gospels introduce the same temple.

If we put what was said into our own modern English, it went like this:

Disciples: "Wow, Lord. Look at this magnificent temple. Just look at its magnificent buildings."
Jesus: "Yes, take a good look at those magnificent buildings, because the day is coming when not one stone will be left upon another."
Disciples: "Lord, when is this calamity going to happen?. What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the Age?"

The scriptures which tell of when Jesus did refer to His own body as the temple, tell us that He was referring not to the temple, but to His own body ( John 2:19-21 ) .

To me, it's practicing eisegesis to the point of ridiculousness to say that Jesus was referring to His own body in the Olivet Discourse. Had Jesus secretly been going to the gym and decided it was a good time to show off his newly developed muscles to His friends, so that they said, "Hey, Lord. You look magnificent. Wow, what a make-over. Good work. Thumbs-up"?

Actually, in my opinion, anyone who believes that Jesus was referring to His body as the temple in the Olivet Discourse, deserves a medal. A trophy, because you have turned us all into probably the first generation of Christians in the last 2,000 years who believe that Jesus was referring to His own body as the temple in the Olivet Discourse :)

Having said all that, I'm going to post what Josephus, who was alive at the time and till much later, wrote about the signs surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

 

[Zao is life]

Josephus, the Jewish historian who lived well past the A.D 66-70 Roman war against Jerusalem, is considered by almost every historian and scholar as a very reliable witness. This is what he has to say concerning the signs that were seen in those days:

(The heading inserts are mine for the sdake of clarity. Also, I'm going to have to separate this into separate posts):

Josephus’ “The War of the Jews” Book 6, Chapter 5, Section 3

GREAT SWORD IN THE SKY ABOVE JERUSALEM AD 66-67

QUOTE (Josephus)
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.

Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. UNQUOTE

(My comment)

A sword also resembles a cross. It brings this scripture to mind:

Matthew 21
40 Therefore when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?
41 They said to Him, Bad men! He will miserably destroy them and will rent out his vineyard to other vinedressers who will give him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus said to them, Did you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone which the builders rejected, this One has become the head of the corner; this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?"
43 Therefore I say to you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing out its fruits.
44 And he who falls on this Stone shall be broken, but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that He spoke of them.

1. If you do not fall upon Jesus and be broken, the stone will become a rock falling on you in judgement.

2. If the sign of the son of Man appearing in the heavens is not interpreted by you as the cross of Christ and your salvation, then it will be your sword.

So it was a cross to the believers, but a sword to the unbelievers.

 

[Zao is life]

THE HEAVY BRASS EASTERN GATE LEADING INTO THE HOLY COURT OF THE TEMPLE OPENS OF ITS OWN ACCORD

QUOTE (Josephus)
Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night.

Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again.

This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. UNQUOTE

(My comment)

The “vulgar” Christians would have understood that the opening of the gates was symbolizing this:

Hebrews 9
11 But when Christ had become a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building
12 nor by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

16 Therefore let us come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

On the other hand the Jewish men of learning understood that it was a "signal that foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.” (but they did not know why, as the unbelieving Jews of today still do not know why).

 

[Zao is life]

CHARIOTS AND TROOPS OF SOLDIERS IN THEIR ARMOUR WERE SEEN RUNNING ABOUT AMONG THE CLOUDS, AND SURROUNDING OF CITIES.

QUOTE (Josephus)
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals;

for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. UNQUOTE

EARTH QUAKES IN THE INNER COURT AND A GREAT SOUND AS OF A MULTITUDE SAYING, “LET US GET AWAY FROM HERE”

QUOTE (Josephus)
Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." UNQUOTE

 

[Zao is life]

A GREAT LIGHT SURROUNDS THE ALTAR AND THE HOLY PLACE

QUOTE (Josephus)
Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.

This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.UNQUOTE

THE SACRIFICIAL HEIFER GIVES BIRTH TO A LAMB

QUOTE (Josephus)
At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. UNQUOTE

 

[Zao is life]

If there was a sign of the son of Man appearing in the heavens, it would have been that sword (cross to some, sword to others).

PS: I do not believe that this cancels out any possibility that we will see it again when Jesus returns.

 

[Timtofly]

The only sign of the Second Coming will be Jesus Christ appearing. No other sign would do it justice.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The sign of the Son of man is the Son of God.

Not sure who is claiming that Jesus is talking about His resurrection in the OD.

What the claim is: the Second Coming and the end of it all is NOT 70AD. Jesus did not say the temple would be destroyed at the Second Coming and thus would be the end of the age.

 

[Zao is life]

My purpose in this thread is only to dispute the claim that the temple that Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse was His body, and to just post what Josephus said about the strange signs reported as surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Just for everyone's info, because Josephus wrote this stuff around A.D 75.

Call it trivia if you like.

 

[Truth7t7]

My purpose in this thread is only to dispute the claim that the temple that Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse was His body, and to just post what Josephus said about the strange signs reported as surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Just for everyone's info, because Josephus wrote this stuff around A.D 75.

Call it trivia if you like.

(Josephus, AKA Yosef ben Matityahu)

Was a traitor to the Jews, as he abandoned his military post in Israel's army and joined forces with the Roman's

He was the propaganda minister for the Roman Emperor, equivalent to Hitlers Joseph Goebbels

Josephus was an adulterer, living in the Emperors furnished palaces, being provided the Emperors wine, women, and song

You quote this figure as authority, smiles!

 

[Zao is life]

(Josephus, AKA Yosef ben Matityahu)

Was a traitor to the Jews, as he abandoned his military post in Israel's army and joined forces with the Roman's

He was the propaganda minister for the Roman Emperor, equivalent to Hitlers Joseph Goebbels

Josephus was an adulterer, living in the Emperors furnished palaces, being provided the Emperors wine, women, and song

You quote this figure as authority, smiles!

So do the vast majority of both historians and Christian scholars alike quote him as an authority. Why? Because some people are able to divorce someone's personal life from the history he's writing about, knowing that it's the history that's important, not the personal life of the historian who wrote it. Was Tactitus an exemplary figure in his personal life do you think? How many historians are and were exemplary in their personal lives, do you think?

Note: Josephus is one of the most important historical writers to all who engage in Christian apologetics with those who claim Jesus was not a real person or this person or that person written about in the Bible were not real people.

PS: Josephus mentions the crucifixion of Christ also, though anti-Christian critics say what Josephus actually wrote when he wrote about Christ was tampered with by later Christian scribes.

You're throwing out one of the most important and relied upon history books we have of the first century (which has been around since AD 75) merely because the historian who wrote it was not saved and is considered a traitor by the Jews.

Well done. Jesus and His apostles were also considered traitors by the Jews. Any Jew who disagrees with the religion of the Rabbis is considered a traitor.

 

[marks]

So do the vast majority of both historians and Christian scholars alike quote him as an authority. Why?

How much of Josephus have you read yourself? I'm just curious if you've read his works, or just excerpted quotes.

Did you know, for instance, he recorded that animals had been created with the ability to speak, and that they lost it? Maybe that's true and maybe not, but like everything else that's not the Bible, as revered as it may be, it's not the Bible.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

How much of Josephus have you read yourself? I'm just curious if you've read his works, or just excerpted quotes.

Did you know, for instance, he recorded that animals had been created with the ability to speak, and that they lost it? Maybe that's true and maybe not, but like everything else that's not the Bible, as revered as it may be, it's not the Bible.

Much love!

I'm not placing Josephus' statements over the Bible's. Ever.

I bought a book decades ago with all Josephus' works. I only read parts. I can't read it all. I'm only a keen reader when it comes to the Bible. The Complete Works of Joesephus sat on my bookshelf gathering dust for years. Every time I tried to read what I'd paid for and gone to great lengths to obtain, I lost interest. Eventually I gave the book to a Christian second-hand bookshop, when clearing out old junk. So what you say is news to me.

 

[marks]

I'm not placing Josephus' statements over the Bible's. Ever.

I bought a book decades ago with all Josephus' works. I only read parts. I can't read it all. I'm only a keen reader when it comes to the Bible. The Complete Works of Joesephus sat on my bookshelf gathering dust for years. Every time I tried to read what I'd paid for and gone to great lengths to obtain, I lost interest. Eventually I gave the book to a Christian second-hand bookshop, when clearing out old junk. So what you say is news to me.

Truth be told, I couldn't read it all either! Same thing with me, if it's not the Bible, it's usually a chore to read something.

I'm just saying, be advised re the source.

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

THE HEAVY BRASS EASTERN GATE LEADING INTO THE HOLY COURT OF THE TEMPLE OPENS OF ITS OWN ACCORD

QUOTE (Josephus)
Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night.

Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again.

This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. UNQUOTE

(My comment)

The “vulgar” Christians would have understood that the opening of the gates was symbolizing this:

Hebrews 9
11 But when Christ had become a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building
12 nor by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

16 Therefore let us come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

On the other hand the Jewish men of learning understood that it was a "signal that foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.” (but they did not know why, as the unbelieving Jews of today still do not know why).

Hebrews 9 is referring to the temple in heaven that the earthy temple was a copy of.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

 

[Zao is life]

Hebrews 9 is referring to the temple in heaven that the earthy temple was a copy of.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Yes, that's true. PS: I don't understand why you mention it, or what your point in mentioning it is. The comment I added is not in Josephus. It's my comment, and I made that clear by adding it after the word "UNQUOTE", because Josephus wrote that the when the Eastern door leading into the holy place opened all by itself, that this "appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness."

Then he added, "But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them."

I assume that Josephus was talking about the people he regarded as the "vulgar" Christians. PS: The word "vulgar" does not carry the same connotation in the old English as it does today. In the old days when only the elite were educated and the rest illiterate, "the vulgar" was simply talking about those who were regarded by the elite and educated as the uneducated and unsophisticated.

Who even knows if what Jospehus wrote is true? Nevertheless, he wrote all of that, and his works as a contemporary historian were published in AD 75 (five years after the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple).

Brother @Marty fox was talking about signs that occurred at the time, and everyone was claiming that there were no signs, so without believing or disbelieving (or caring) about what Josephus wrote (because it's not in the Bible), I put it up in this thread just FYI for everyone's sake.

 

[Curtis]

I'm not placing Josephus' statements over the Bible's. Ever.

I bought a book decades ago with all Josephus' works. I only read parts. I can't read it all. I'm only a keen reader when it comes to the Bible. The Complete Works of Joesephus sat on my bookshelf gathering dust for years. Every time I tried to read what I'd paid for and gone to great lengths to obtain, I lost interest. Eventually I gave the book to a Christian second-hand bookshop, when clearing out old junk. So what you say is news to me.

Well, if a bird can speak, any animal should potentially be able to speak, and it’s possible that before sin cursed all creation, animals were smarter and could talk - which would explain a talking snake having the devil tell it what to say, like he once did with Peter.

All speculation, of course.


Maranatha