Adam and Eve Did Not Have Free Will!

[FHII]

And if reality turned out differently, He would have declared that reality from the beginning as well. God is sovereign over time a space and dimension.

Huh?

 

[aspen]

Huh?

The concept is not that weird. It is sort of like the idea of parallel universes - all our choices laid out before God and their consequences.

 

[FHII]

The concept is not that weird. It is sort of like the idea of parallel universes - all our choices laid out before God and their consequences.

Yea... Thanks..... But right now, I'd just like to know if God knew and preplanned what happened with Adam. Since he sent the cure before the disease, I can't think anything else but he did, and he planned it that way.

 

[aspen]

Yea... Thanks..... But right now, I'd just like to know if God knew and preplanned what happened with Adam. Since he sent the cure before the disease, I can't think anything else but he did, and he planned it that way.

I would imagine that God thought through the possibility - sort of like planning a vacation with small children - anything could happen. Children misuse things all the time.

In the case of the Fall of humanity, the situation is a bit more complicated. I tend to believe that Jesus dying on the Cross represents God's heart breaking - which illustrates how He felt about our betrayal, but I cannot prove it.

 

[jshiii]

Let me try again. Jesus was slain, picked to be slain, or foreordained to be slain (however you want to put it) BEFORE Adam and Eve fell. I listed and discussed the verses in the OP. If that is so, how can we say Adam and Eve had free will? Can we conclude they didn't? I listed several possible conclusions.

So if anyone would like to comment, please do so.

Hmm....Adam and Eve had free will. We as humans do not have the potential to fully comprehend. God created a human perfect....the genetics was perfect! The intelligence and physical being of a human being (A&E) was 100% perfect, without flaw. Amazing thought huh. Let's start from here...Adam and Eve were so completely perfect that eventually they would most likely make a choice that was in conflict with God, just as Satan did.

 

[aspen]

Hmm....Adam and Eve had free will. We as humans do not have the potential to fully comprehend. God created a human perfect....the genetics was perfect! The intelligence and physical being of a human being (A&E) was 100% perfect, without flaw. Amazing thought huh. Let's start from here...Adam and Eve were so completely perfect that eventually they would most likely make a choice that was in conflict with God, just as Satan did.

I agree with everything, but your conclusion. It sounds a bit like the Matrix. Good does not rely on Evil or sin to be perfected or to punish or to teach or for any reason.

 

[jshiii]

I think this whole discussion lacks a lot of understanding in the nature of how awesome God really is. BUT I LIKE IT!!! I have questions just like all christians do, but my motives are based on love (as we all strive for) and to understand the love of God. I pray that he gives me insight into the deeper concepts of his greatness that may increase my knowledge of his love for us that I may be a vessel that gives glory to him and also that when he brings my spirit to abide with him for eternity that I would know the depths and the heights of such a love if we as humans could ever fully know its potential.

 

[aspen]

I think this whole discussion lacks a lot of understanding in the nature of how awesome God really is. BUT I LIKE IT!!! I have questions just like all christians do, but my motives are based on love (as we all strive for) and to understand the love of God. I pray that he gives me insight into the deeper concepts of his greatness that may increase my knowledge of his love for us that I may be a vessel that gives glory to him and also that when he brings my spirit to abide with him for eternity that I would know the depths and the heights of such a love if we as humans could ever fully know its potential.

I had to give you a point for your awesome post!

have you heard of George MacDonald? He inspired CS Lewis - his focus is God's mercy, justice, and love - here is one of his sermons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC1danjfrmM

 

[FHII]

Hmm....Adam and Eve had free will. We as humans do not have the potential to fully comprehend. God created a human perfect....the genetics was perfect! The intelligence and physical being of a human being (A&E) was 100% perfect, without flaw. Amazing thought huh. Let's start from here...Adam and Eve were so completely perfect that eventually they would most likely make a choice that was in conflict with God, just as Satan did.

John III, the statement that they had free will is not supported by your answer. You haven't answered why it is that Jesus was slain (or ordained to be) before the fall. It also doesn't explain why God said he declared the end from the beginning. Furthermore, the statement that "Adam and Eve were so completely perfect that they would most likely make a choice that was in conflict with God" is totally baffling. It doesn't seem to me that a perfect being goes against God's Word. Perhaps you could elaborate.

The only reasonable answer to this question is that God preplanned Adam and Eve to fall.

 

[FHII]

I would imagine that God thought through the possibility - sort of like planning a vacation with small children - anything could happen. Children misuse things all the time.

In the case of the Fall of humanity, the situation is a bit more complicated. I tend to believe that Jesus dying on the Cross represents God's heart breaking - which illustrates how He felt about our betrayal, but I cannot prove it.

Now Aspen, do you really believe that? So the scenerio is that God made Adam, made the Garden and then for some reason put the serpent there as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He then figured out that maybe, just maybe Adam and Eve might listen to the serpent, and mess it up. So, juuuust in case, he ordained his son to die.... Just in case, mind you...

I realize God's ways are higher than man's ways.... But I don't know... I would've put the serpent and tree somewhere else. The belief that God was planning ahead for an emergency doesn't seem reasonable. It's like bringing a gun on a family vacation and planning ahead by bringing an emergency kit also, just in case someone shoots himself. Why not leave the gun at home?

What about this verse?

Isa 46:10

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[THE Gypsy]

Now Aspen, do you really believe that? So the scenerio is that God made Adam, made the Garden and then for some reason put the serpent there as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He then figured out that maybe, just maybe Adam and Eve might listen to the serpent, and mess it up. So, juuuust in case, he ordained his son to die.... Just in case, mind you...

I realize God's ways are higher than man's ways.... But I don't know... I would've put the serpent and tree somewhere else. The belief that God was planning ahead for an emergency doesn't seem reasonable. It's like bringing a gun on a family vacation and planning ahead by bringing an emergency kit also, just in case someone shoots himself. Why not leave the gun at home?

What about this verse?

Isa 46:10

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

All depends on the "family vacation". We do a lot of off-roading on our "family vacations". We always take guns.

Planning ahead...It's called being smart.

Although...The scenario you provided wasn't a very good one. Either you plan, and train, on how to use and respect the gun or you're a moron.

 

[FHII]

All depends on the "family vacation". We do a lot of off-roading on our "family vacations". We always take guns.

Planning ahead...It's called being smart.

Although...The scenario you provided wasn't a very good one. Either you plan, and train, on how to use and respect the gun or you're a moron.

No it wasn't a good scenerio.... But neither is the suggestion that God was just planning ahead in just in case they did fall.

 

[THE Gypsy]

No it wasn't a good scenerio.... But neither is the suggestion that God was just planning ahead in just in case they did fall.

I'm not so certain about that. Well...I do not believe there was a "just in case". Since God is omniscient, created the timeline for the earth (including a beginning, middle and end) with full knowledge of events to unfold, is aware of the number of hairs on everyone's' head, why would it catch anyone off guard that he would be fully aware of any and all unfolding events?

 

[FHII]

I'm not so certain about that. Well...I do not believe there was a "just in case". Since God is omniscient, created the timeline for the earth (including a beginning, middle and end) with full knowledge of events to unfold, is aware of the number of hairs on everyone's' head, why would it catch anyone off guard that he would be fully aware of any and all unfolding events?

Well, that's precisely my point, Gypsy. The question is he merely aware of all unfolding events, or are they part of his plan? If he created the timeline for earth, this would say he planned them, including the fall of Adam and Eve.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Well, that's precisely my point, Gypsy. The question is he merely aware of all unfolding events, or are they part of his plan? If he created the timeline for earth, this would say he planned them, including the fall of Adam and Eve.

 

[FHII]

I'm not sure if you understood what I said, or if you are just pondering the question.

 

[THE Gypsy]

I'm not sure if you understood what I said, or if you are just pondering the question.

No...Not "pondering"...However...Maybe you are separating "knowing" from "planning"?

I believe God is all knowing. I also believe he has a plan. If not, we're simply going through life haphazardly. Without a "plan" why include so much prophecy? Without a "plan" (meaning if something happens that God did not plan for) we are all worshiping a fallible deity and that is not a very comforting prospect.

 

[aspen]

Now Aspen, do you really believe that? So the scenerio is that God made Adam, made the Garden and then for some reason put the serpent there as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He then figured out that maybe, just maybe Adam and Eve might listen to the serpent, and mess it up. So, juuuust in case, he ordained his son to die.... Just in case, mind you...

I realize God's ways are higher than man's ways.... But I don't know... I would've put the serpent and tree somewhere else. The belief that God was planning ahead for an emergency doesn't seem reasonable. It's like bringing a gun on a family vacation and planning ahead by bringing an emergency kit also, just in case someone shoots himself. Why not leave the gun at home?

What about this verse?

Isa 46:10

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The Tree is not a magic tree - it was like every other part of creation. Adam and Eve were not allow to misuse anything in God creation - they just happen to misuse the tree - and it was label 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' sort of like Wyatt Earps gun was named "Peace Maker" - it became a famous tree because A&E made it famous, but it had no unusual power.

Also, who knows how long the serpent tempted Eve? It could have been centuries and she simply had a bad moment - perhaps she ate the fruit to shut him up! Prelandra by CS Lewis presents a new angle on the story, which is similar to what I just suggested. Fact is, we do not know what happened before the Fall or the progression of time.

Who knows? Perhaps God forgave A&E immediately after the Fall and they asked God what forgiveness is so God sat them down and told them a story by stretching out time and space and described a progression of separation/faithfulness/sovereignty (God reaching out to us in the OT), heartbreak/bid for repentance (death on the cross / our repentance) and redemption (God's grace, justification, sanctification, transformation, and reunification of humanity). It really is an experiential lesson in forgiveness - one that A&E could never understand without a lesson AND necessary to continue an intimate relationship with God.

 

[FHII]

The Tree is not a magic tree - it was like every other part of creation. Adam and Eve were not allow to misuse anything in God creation - they just happen to misuse the tree - and it was label 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' sort of like Wyatt Earps gun was named "Peace Maker" - it became a famous tree because A&E made it famous, but it had no unusual power.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Yea.... Just an ordinary tree with no unusual power. Not even the serpent told this lie!

Aspen,

You missed the whole point! I didn't want to respond to your post but it was so out there I had to. The point is that God wasn't planning for a "just in case" scenerio! He planned it!

 

[aspen]

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Yea.... Just an ordinary tree with no unusual power. Not even the serpent told this lie!

Aspen,

You missed the whole point! I didn't want to respond to your post but it was so out there I had to. The point is that God wasn't planning for a "just in case" scenerio! He planned it!

Not sure where you got the quote.

All the verses you provided are about not misusing the Tree. Not sure what you re trying to point out.