All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[justaname]

Exactly and guess what verse 16 shows:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


So, the resurrection does in fact happen prior to the living being "caught up" which is the rapture, the Greek word being HARPAZO, which translated to the Latin Rapio, to the English word Rapture.

The rapture happens after the second coming and the second coming happens after the end of the trib.

Good stuff!

The 1 Th "resurrection" does not refer to this...

Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and bbooks were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

It also cannot refer to this, as Jesus returns with all his saints hence the harpazo (those who are not dead)...yet this section is clearly called the First Resurrection...

Revelation 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

It is possible the 1Th event happens before or in the middle of the tribulation...this coming of the Christ (1Th event) is the gathering of the saints. This is not to be confused with Christ coming to deal wrath on the the inhabitants of the earth. The church is not destined to wrath.

 

[ewq1938]

The 1 Th "resurrection" does not refer to this...

I disagree. There is only one resurrection of the dead in Christ. 1 Th and Rev 20 speak of the same event. Both are after the trib has ended.

 

[justaname]

Revelation 19

5 And a voice came from the throne, saying,
“Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great.”
6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying,
“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.
Marriage of the Lamb
7 “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His cbride has made herself ready.”
8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’ ” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”


The Coming of Christ
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

My point of this scripture is to show how Jesus returns with all His saints. Clearly in verse 19 it is His bondservants or hoi douloi that is being referenced. They are given fine linen, they are then described returning with Christ. The event of Chapter 20 follows this...

Your scenario does not make sense because the saints return with Christ...

 

[justaname]

I disagree. There is only one resurrection of the dead in Christ. 1 Th and Rev 20 speak of the same event. Both are after the trib has ended.

And this illustrates my point...Jesus returns with His saints...so the 1Th event can not be the first resurrection...

 

[ewq1938]

And this illustrates my point...Jesus returns with His saints...so the 1Th event can not be the first resurrection...

That is not an issue. The dead in Christ are in heaven and when it's time for his coming, they are resurrected into bodies and come with him.

 

[ewq1938]

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the start of the second coming/Christ leaves heaven. (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29 )
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ)
3. the rapture. (living saints are gathered together in order to meet Christ when he arrives)

This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

 

[justaname]

It is obvious you do not see your eisegesis...

You do know you are putting these constraints on the text right? The context is the gathering of the saints...

My point is the saints are gathered before the first resurrection, it is the 1Thess passage that describes this.

The saints must be gathered before Christ returns because He returns with them...this then allows for the event of the gathering of the saints event to be before, during, or after the tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

It is obvious you do not see your eisegesis...

You do know you are putting these constraints on the text right?

There is no eisegesis being used.

My point is the saints are gathered before the first resurrection, it is the 1Thess passage that describes this.

Scripture places the gathering of the saints AFTER the resurrection not before it. 1Th 4:15 says that explicitly.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


the dead in Christ shall rise first, and second is the gathering or rapture of the saints. You have it backwards.

 

[DPMartin]

I would say that ewg has the key to the understanding in this matter. Reason being is, we who are with Him are never without Him, we are were He is. Though that could turn into another subject the point is, if the Lord is with you, He is with you forever, therefore you are always with Him forever. Hence if Jesus isn’t on the receiving end of His wrath, it stands to reason that we will not be on the receiving end of His wrath.

And that is without the obvious scripture he used.

 

[ATP]

I would say that ewg has the key to the understanding in this matter. Reason being is, we who are with Him are never without Him, we are were He is. Though that could turn into another subject the point is, if the Lord is with you, He is with you forever, therefore you are always with Him forever. Hence if Jesus isn’t on the receiving end of His wrath, it stands to reason that we will not be on the receiving end of His wrath.

And that is without the obvious scripture he used.

John 8:34-36 NIV Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

 

[ewq1938]

I would say that ewg has the key to the understanding in this matter. Reason being is, we who are with Him are never without Him, we are were He is. Though that could turn into another subject the point is, if the Lord is with you, He is with you forever, therefore you are always with Him forever. Hence if Jesus isn’t on the receiving end of His wrath, it stands to reason that we will not be on the receiving end of His wrath.

Quite true. The main problem is pretribs somehow think the tribulation is God's wrath when it isn't. So they create this evacuation before the trib so none of the church faces God's wrath...except the trib saints of course because that makes perfect sense lol

Truth is, the trib is not God's wrath, but Satan's wrath mentioned in Rev 12 which just precedes the start of the trib in Rev 13. God holds his wrath until a determined time then the wrath happens. God always works this way, wickedness has a time to work and prosper then God's wrath comes. It was like that in the two examples that are likened to the return of Christ, Noah/flood and lot/fire. In both examples the time before the flood/fire would be the tribulation, and the wrath of God comes when those times are no longer tolerated by God.

 

[ATP]

So they create this evacuation before the trib so none of the church faces God's wrath..

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Rom 5:9 NIV Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

1 Thess 1:9-10 NIV for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 3:10 NIV Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

Truth is, the trib is not God's wrath, but Satan's wrath mentioned in Rev 12

The wrath of the Lamb is in Rev 6:16-17 NIV They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”