All who are not taken up to meet the Lord in the air when He comes will be left behind and killed.

[Spiritual Israelite]

But God will have Adam (created human beings) given a second chance to see how we will react when tested once more (only one more chance to be tested) when Satan is released again to deceive mankind one more time.​

How does that line up with this:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This verse doesn't indicate that any second chances are given after death. It indicates that people's fates are sealed upon death and they will eventually be either rewarded or punished at the judgment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The problem in my case might not be your view, but might be that I'm not fully grasping what you are meaning. It's going over my head for some reason. I'm not entirely certain what you are trying to say over all. In the meantime, I'm still thinking along these lines below.

Personally, I think Zechariah 14:12 is meaning Revelation 19:21. And if I am correct, maybe I am, maybe I'm not, that means these in verse 16 were spared the fate those in verse 12 encounters---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem. Obviously, these at this point have never died. What should we assume their state is? A mortal state, or an immortal state? If the latter how did they obtain this state? My guess would be, they can't be any of the ones meant in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 if they can be threatened with being punished for failing to comply with what is commanded of them.

I believe that doctrine should be primarily based on clear, straightforward scripture. At least, what we think is clear and straightforward. That should be the foundation of our doctrines, in my opinion. We can then use that foundation to help interpret more difficult passages of scripture.

So, with that said, would you include Zechariah 14 as being part of the foundation of your doctrine? You acknowledge that your understanding of Zechariah 14:12 may or may not be correct. Which is fine. I'm not certain what it means, either. But, I'm just wondering if you include that in the foundation of your doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I understand your point about Isaiah 65:20 but when I think of the NHNE and the way Paul linked the regeneration of all things and the whole of creation being delivered from the bondage of decay, to OUR own resurrection from the dead,

This made me curious. How do you interpret Isaiah 65:17-25 and especially verse 20 in particular?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think the “explanation” of Minas is found in Luke 19:26

• He replied, ‘I tell you that everyone who has will be given more; but the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him

This same explanation is provided earlier in Luke, specifically, chapter 8, in regards to the parable of the sower and of the lamp.

• 18Pay attention, therefore, to how you listen. Whoever has will be given more, but whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him.”

In this second context it’s discussing what appears to be knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, which have been given to certain believers - the disciples in this case. The good seeds produce crop, the other soils result in this knowledge being taken away so to speak. So IMHO, the Mina’s given to the servants are the secrets of the kingdom. The good servants multiply the Minas like the good seeds in good soil - multiplying crops a hundred fold, while the bad servant doesnt, like the bad soils thus what they have is taken away. What the rewards are symbolic for (cities in Luke, more talents in Matthew), are never actually stated, so again, I don’t think the rewards are the main point of the parable in Luke 8 nor in Luke 19.

But if I were to make a stab at what the rewards are, I think revelation 2-3, and “the one who overcomes” is probably the best place to start. interestingly enough, shepherding over the nations with an iron rod is listed as one of the rewards.

But, the parable of the minas talks about rewards being given when the King returns. You say He returned in 70 AD, right? What rewards did He give out in 70 AD?

 

[claninja]

Wrong. Making sure that I interpret the parable in such a way that lines up with the rest of scripture is exegesis, not eisegesis. You drawing conclusions from the parable while ignoring that rewards are given at the same time as the punishments is eisegesis.

If your ignoring the surrounding context, arguing that vs 41-44 are completely unrelated to the parable, and then imposing your own framework onto the text to get it to align with said framework, that’s literally eisegesis

I was talking about them being brought before His throne to be judged, like what is written about in Matthew 25:31-46. When do you believe that Matthew 25:31-46 is fulfilled?

That’s Matthew, not Luke. Where does Matthew’s use of the parable mention the citizens, that rejected the nobleman, being slaughtered?

I am ignoring nothing. You are ignoring that rewards are given out at the same time as the punishments.

You are indeed ignoring Luke 19:38-44 and it’s applicability to the parable IF you believe Luke 19:14,27 has nothing to do with the surrounding context, but instead must abide by to your own framework.

Do you not understand that Jesus had both their near term physical punishment and long term eternal punishment in His mind? He spoke about both in the Olivet Discourse, so why not in Luke 19 as well?

You know I do disagree with your position on the olivet discourse, right?

But sure, let’s say the Olivet discourse seemingly weaved together 2 events (destruction of Jerusalem and 2nd advent) that are separated by generations, as if they were one event - talking about the near and far together, as one, where the separation of what’s near and far is determined by one’s eschatological framework - then Yea, why wouldn’t Luke do the same thing - 70ad and 2nd advent, the near and far, together as one story?

The only thing is that Luke’s parable in 19 makes it harder to draw that eschatological line.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If your ignoring the surrounding context, arguing that vs 41-44 are completely unrelated to the parable, and then imposing your own framework onto the text to get it to align with said framework, that’s literally eisegesis

It is your opinion that verses 41-44 relate directly to the parable. I see no basis for thinking that those verses a part of the context of the parable when you consider that the Pharisees not only would be physically destroyed in 70 AD but also will be brought before Jesus in the future to give an account of themselves after which thy will be cast into the lake of fire. So, your OPINION that verses 41-44 relate to the context of the parable is eisegesis and not exegesis.

You talk about me supposedly ignoring the surrounding context while you are ignoring part of the parable itself that helps establish the context of the rest of the parable. You have no explanation for what the rewards were that Jesus supposedly gave when He supposedly returned in 70 AD.

That’s Matthew, not Luke. Where does Matthew’s use of the parable mention the citizens, that rejected the nobleman, being slaughtered?

LOL. It's all scripture. It's all the words of Jesus. Who cares if one thing He said is in one book and one in another? You don't think we should interpret the parable in such a way that lines up with the rest of scripture? We shouldn't take other scripture into account? You have to be kidding me here.

Remember, it's a parable. I see so many people on here trying to interpret parables literally for some inexplicable reason.

You understand that parables are made up stories that illustrate things in reality, right? Why do you take the reference to His enemies literally in terms of it talking about them being physically slaughtered, but you don't take the part about them first being brought before the king literally? Where is the consistency in your view?

The king in the parable is not a real king, the servants are not real servants and it's not talking about real servants being slaughtered. All of that figuratively represents something in reality. The king obviously represents Jesus. The rewarded servants obviously represent His people. The wicked servants obviously represent unbelievers. The only time scripture speaks of believers being rewarded and unbelievers being punished at the same time is when Jesus comes with His angels in the future at the end of the age (Matthew 25:31-46, Matt 13:36-43, Matt 13:47-50). That has not yet occurred. So, how can the parable of the minas refer to any other event?

You are indeed ignoring Luke 19:38-44 and it’s applicability to the parable IF you believe Luke 19:14,27 has nothing to do with the surrounding context, but instead must abide by to your own framework.

Nonsense. I'm ignoring nothing. How does it abide by your framework? Who did Jesus give rewards to in 70 AD and what rewards were they?

You know I do disagree with your position on the olivet discourse, right?

Yes, but I don't care. I'm explaining my view, not yours. I honestly don't care at all what you think and that you disagree with me. That means nothing to me. I'm sharing my view for the benefit of any others who might be reading this discussion. I know I can't change your mind and you know you can't change mine.

But sure, let’s say the Olivet discourse seemingly weaved together 2 events (destruction of Jerusalem and 2nd advent) that are separated by generations, as if they were one event - talking about the near and far together, as one, where the separation of what’s near and far is determined by one’s eschatological framework - then Yea, why wouldn’t Luke do the same thing - 70ad and 2nd advent, the near and far, together as one story?

Glad you agree on that, at least. It's a wonder that you even agree with me about that. This shows that you at least understand where I'm coming from on this and how I could see Jesus as referring to both events in Luke 19 similar to how I believe He did so in the Olivet Discourse as well.

The only thing is that Luke’s parable in 19 makes it harder to draw that eschatological line.

Why?

 

[Zao is life]

The problem in my case might not be your view, but might be that I'm not fully grasping what you are meaning. It's going over my head for some reason. I'm not entirely certain what you are trying to say over all. In the meantime, I'm still thinking along these lines below.

Personally, I think Zechariah 14:12 is meaning Revelation 19:21. And if I am correct, maybe I am, maybe I'm not, that means these in verse 16 were spared the fate those in verse 12 encounters---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem. Obviously, these at this point have never died. What should we assume their state is? A mortal state, or an immortal state? If the latter how did they obtain this state? My guess would be, they can't be any of the ones meant in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 if they can be threatened with being punished for failing to comply with what is commanded of them.

I understand what you are saying because I keep the above in mind too - but I also keep in mind that Revelation 21:24 refers to the nations of them which are saved walking in the light of New Jerusalem, where it also says the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

And I believe the kings of the earth mentioned there are the same kings of the earth first referred to in Revelation 1:5 where we are told that Jesus Christ is the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Revelation 18 tells us about the kings of the earth who committed fornication with the harlot weeping and wailing over her demise, and to me that means that those kings of the earth are not the same as the ten kings who hated the harlot and rendered her desolate and naked, and ate her flesh and burned her with fire.

I believe that those unfaithful kings of the earth who committed fornication with the harlot are the kings of the earth whom the harlot reigns over (Revelation 17:18), and they are also the kings of the earth spoken about in the sixth seal (Revelation 6:15) calling on the rocks to hide them from the wrath of God.

Therefore I believe that the kings of the earth mentioned bringing the glory and honor of the nations into New Jerusalem are referring to the faithful kings of the earth who did not fornicate with the harlot - those who Revelation 1:5 says are ruled by Christ.

So again, the nations of them which are saved walking in the light of New Jerusalem and the kings of the earth bringing the glory and honor of the nations into New Jerusalem does not suggest any mortals to me. To me it suggests that the kings of the earth mentioned there, are the saved of the earth;

and not only does Revelation 13 tell us that ALL whose names are NOT written in the book of life WILL worship the beast, but Revelation 14:6 through 20 tells us that the destiny of ALL who worship the beast is the lake of fire.

Regarding the rest, I will try one more time to explain to you what I mean by telling you what I believe regarding myself and how my salvation works:​

--------------------------​

1. I believe that life [zoe] has always existed because it exists in God from eternity to eternity. Therefore the life of Christ is eternal life.

John 1:4 tells us that this life [zoe] was in the Word which created mankind, and John 1:14 tells us that the Word became a Man, and John 5:26 tells us that He alone among human beings has life [zoe] in Himself.

I believe that the resurrected Man, Jesus Christ alone possesses His own immortality in Himself (as 1 Timothy 6:15-16 tells us) because He alone possesses eternal life [zoe] in Himself, and I bear in mind that He is not a created human being but is begotten of God.

Me: I'm a created man, the son of Adam. I do not have eternal life in myself - the eternal life [zoe] that God has given me is IN Christ (1 John 5:11-12).

Therefore I believe that - despite what (probably all churches) teach - though I will be raised bodily from the dead by Christ and will therefore be immortal, even so I will never possess that immortality in myself (the way only Christ does), because I will never possess eternal life [zoe] in myself (the way only Christ does) and I believe that this was the case with my ancestors Adam and Eve - who were created human beings into whom God had breathed eternal life [zoe].

Therefore I consider the reason for the fact that at the close of the thousand years, God will release Satan again to attempt to deceive all mankind again, and the fact that - with the exception of a faithful remnant - Satan will succeed in deceiving the nations again. And I consider the fact that all of Satan's lies begin with:​

"And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die." ​

Christ came, took my sin upon Himself and died in my place, and rose again from the dead, destroying Satan's power over my death.

But there will be a second death - and that second death = the destruction of death and hades in the lake of fire.

So because I'm a son of Adam - a created human being - and because even though there was no death in the Garden of Eden before Adam sinned and began to die, I no longer believe - like I used to because that's what the churches teach - that just because Christ will raise me bodily from the dead, I can never die once I have been raised bodily from the dead and will have become immortal.

"Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna." (Matthew 10:28).

In the gospels gehenna is the word Jesus used as a symbol for everlasting destruction, every time He spoke of everlasting destruction.

At the close of the millennium, God is going to permit Satan to go about attempting to deceive the nations once more.

Why?

I note and bear in mind the fact that it's only those who have been tested and have overcome that are promised in scripture that the second death will have no authority over them. I believe that the rest of resurrected humanity - because we are all created human beings - will be tested like Adam was - given one more chance to prove whose Word they will believe - whether Satan's word:​

"And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die." ​

.. upon which all his other lies are built on top of,

- or God's Word.

Life | eternal life [zoe] is in the Word of God. The Vine is the Word of God. Created human beings must abide in the Vine, or we will die, and there is a second death coming.

There must be a reason why God will allow Satan to deceive the nations one more time at the close of the millennium.​

 

[Zao is life]

How does that line up with this:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This verse doesn't indicate that any second chances are given after death. It indicates that people's fates are sealed upon death and they will eventually be either rewarded or punished at the judgment.

The second death IS the judgment. It's the DESTRUCTION of death and hades in the lake of fire - eternal damnation, the lake of fire. The "appointed to die once" is the death of the body that follows this life. It's not the judgment which comes afterward, which IS the second death.

 

[Zao is life]

So, you're fine with that then? You think it's possible that God would only reveal some things to you alone?

So, do you think you're the only one who had prayed and prayed and prayed to God for help in understanding His Word? I have done so as well. I say often (sometimes to myself) that the key to having the wisdom to understand His word is to ask for it and I base that on James 1:5-7. So, despite both of us praying and asking God for understanding, we still disagree on some things. Maybe we each still have more things to learn and He's not doing answering our prayers? Yes, I think so.

Stop throwing my words back at me. It's rude and you're starting all over again with your usual annoying nonsense.

Obviously I know I'm not the only one who prays for understanding and yes, as far as I know, SO FAR I'm the only one who believes along these lines. If I'm wrong in this understanding then I'm wrong, but if I'm correct then it's not because I'm special but because truth is truth and has always been truth since eternity - which was long before you and I were born. (Maybe you should bear that in mind once in a while, or at least A LOT more often, before you throw your accusations at people).

First you say,

I can't say you just believe all that because you dreamed it up in your imagination. No, it's what you see taught in scripture. I can respect that even though I disagree.

Then you say something that negates what you had just said in the above quote.

SO NOW WE'RE BACK TO THE SAME ISSUES AGAIN WHERE WE CANNOT AGREE TO DISAGREE.

I just can't wrap my mind around what you're saying here. The way I see it is that we inherit eternal life when He comes (Matthew 25:31-46), so it's something He gives to us.

Eternal life is something scripture says He gives to us only in Christ because eternal life exists only in the Word of God (John 1:4; John 5:26; 1 John 5:11-12).

The Word of God is the living Vine of life (John 1:4; John 15:5-6). Abiding in the Vine is what Adam and Eve failed to do - and until they failed and before they were deceived, there was no death in the Garden of Eden - because God had created Adam and Eve and breathed His life into them, and they became living souls from then on - but only until they believed the word of Satan telling them they would not surely die - and then they sinned, and died.

Never mind. You think I'm claiming that God has revealed this to me alone.

According to you I'm wrong of course (which is okay to me because of course I may be wrong) but according to you also, I seem to think I'm "the only one who God has given this understanding to."

Yet IF what I see is true, then maybe the apostles all understood it, and maybe the apostles could not get it into the heads of saints like you - no matter what they wrote or how they worded things

- and maybe I'm not the only one who sees this in scripture, but this is what I've seen in scripture through extremely careful and diligent searches of each and every verse containing the words

zoe (life); zao (to be alive | to be living); and psuche (used interchangeably in the N.T for the life, mind and soul of the flesh - which is in the blood - which in Adam's case his psuche became zao when God breathed zoe into Him).

Anyway, forget it. Your insulting ways and hurling false accusations against someone disagreeing with you, are part of your style. You can't help yourself.

 

[Zao is life]

This made me curious. How do you interpret Isaiah 65:17-25 and especially verse 20 in particular?

IMO it's talking about the same NHNE the Revelation is talking about and there is no death in it, and the way it's worded in Isaiah 65:20 and 17-25 is the way the prophets wrote under the inspiration of God - poetically and using imagery and metaphors which are not necessarily literal. Like building houses and no one else living in them and lions lying down with lambs, etc.

It's imagery that is pointing to a perfect state of the way things are in the NHNE, IMO.

IMO Isaiah was inspired by God to represent it in that way.

So IMO we should never be over-zealous to be over-literal in our interpretation of any prophetic portions of scripture - but some things are indeed meant to be taken literally, and which side of the literal/symbolic divide to place things like the millennium of the Revelation can cause immature saints like you and me to become extremely rude to one another.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I understand what you are saying because I keep the above in mind too - but I also keep in mind that Revelation 21:24 refers to the nations of them which are saved walking in the light of New Jerusalem, where it also says the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

And I believe the kings of the earth mentioned there are the same kings of the earth first referred to in Revelation 1:5 where we are told that Jesus Christ is the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Revelation 18 tells us about the kings of the earth who committed fornication with the harlot weeping and wailing over her demise, and to me that means that those kings of the earth are not the same as the ten kings who hated the harlot and rendered her desolate and naked, and ate her flesh and burned her with fire.

I believe that those unfaithful kings of the earth who committed fornication with the harlot are the kings of the earth whom the harlot reigns over (Revelation 17:18), and they are also the kings of the earth spoken about in the sixth seal (Revelation 6:15) calling on the rocks to hide them from the wrath of God.

Therefore I believe that the kings of the earth mentioned bringing the glory and honor of the nations into New Jerusalem are referring to the faithful kings of the earth who did not fornicate with the harlot - those who Revelation 1:5 says are ruled by Christ.

So again, the nations of them which are saved walking in the light of New Jerusalem and the kings of the earth bringing the glory and honor of the nations into New Jerusalem does not suggest any mortals to me. To me it suggests that the kings of the earth mentioned there, are the saved of the earth;

and not only does Revelation 13 tell us that ALL whose names are NOT written in the book of life WILL worship the beast, but Revelation 14:6 through 20 tells us that the destiny of ALL who worship the beast is the lake of fire.

Regarding the rest, I will try one more time to explain to you what I mean by telling you what I believe regarding myself and how my salvation works:​

--------------------------​

1. I believe that life [zoe] has always existed because it exists in God from eternity to eternity. Therefore the life of Christ is eternal life.

John 1:4 tells us that this life [zoe] was in the Word which created mankind, and John 1:14 tells us that the Word became a Man, and John 5:26 tells us that He alone among human beings has life [zoe] in Himself.

I believe that the resurrected Man, Jesus Christ alone possesses His own immortality in Himself (as 1 Timothy 6:15-16 tells us) because He alone possesses eternal life [zoe] in Himself, and I bear in mind that He is not a created human being but is begotten of God.

Me: I'm a created man, the son of Adam. I do not have eternal life in myself - the eternal life [zoe] that God has given me is IN Christ (1 John 5:11-12).

Therefore I believe that - despite what (probably all churches) teach - though I will be raised bodily from the dead by Christ and will therefore be immortal, even so I will never possess that immortality in myself (the way only Christ does), because I will never possess eternal life [zoe] in myself (the way only Christ does) and I believe that this was the case with my ancestors Adam and Eve - who were created human beings into whom God had breathed eternal life [zoe].

Therefore I consider the reason for the fact that at the close of the thousand years, God will release Satan again to attempt to deceive all mankind again, and the fact that - with the exception of a faithful remnant - Satan will succeed in deceiving the nations again. And I consider the fact that all of Satan's lies begin with:​

"And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die." ​

Christ came, took my sin upon Himself and died in my place, and rose again from the dead, destroying Satan's power over my death.

But there will be a second death - and that second death = the destruction of death and hades in the lake of fire.

So because I'm a son of Adam - a created human being - and because even though there was no death in the Garden of Eden before Adam sinned and began to die, I no longer believe - like I used to because that's what the churches teach - that just because Christ will raise me bodily from the dead, I can never die once I have been raised bodily from the dead and will have become immortal.

"Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna." (Matthew 10:28).

In the gospels gehenna is the word Jesus used as a symbol for everlasting destruction, every time He spoke of everlasting destruction.

At the close of the millennium, God is going to permit Satan to go about attempting to deceive the nations once more.

Why?

I note and bear in mind the fact that it's only those who have been tested and have overcome that are promised in scripture that the second death will have no authority over them. I believe that the rest of resurrected humanity - because we are all created human beings - will be tested like Adam was - given one more chance to prove whose Word they will believe - whether Satan's word:​

"And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die." ​

.. upon which all his other lies are built on top of,

- or God's Word.

Life | eternal life [zoe] is in the Word of God. The Vine is the Word of God. Created human beings must abide in the Vine, or we will die, and there is a second death coming.

There must be a reason why God will allow Satan to deceive the nations one more time at the close of the millennium.​

If I understand you correctly, you seem to think that some people will be raised with immortal bodies and you think they can die after that. Yet, the word immortal means this...

immortal (adjective): living forever; never dying or decaying.

How can someone die who lives for ever and can never die?

And, as far as them getting a second chance, what about this verse...

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This seems to indicate that one someone dies, their fate is sealed and there is nothing more they can do and they then look forward to the judgment for either reward or sentencing and punishment.

And what about this passage...

2 Corinthians 6:1 As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

This indicates that today is the day of salvation and now it the time of salvation. Not tomorrow. Not after death. Today. Now. This shows an urgency for people to repent while they still have a chance today...now. Which makes sense because no one knows if they will survive past today or past this moment in time or not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Stop throwing my words back at me. It's rude and you're starting all over again with your usual annoying nonsense.

Please be patient with me. If you don't want to believe that I'm trying to just discuss scripture and leave insults out of it, then I can't help that, but you don't know me. God does and He knows that I confessed to Him that I was wrong for doing that and I asked Him to help me stop doing that. It's not just going to happen immediately. I think I've already improved in that area and I'm going to keep making an effort to do that. I am not trying to offend you. I am just trying to understand the mindset of people (it's not just you who has unique beliefs, obviously) who have unique views on some things that no one else has or very few people have. I'm wondering how that happens.

Obviously I know I'm not the only one who prays for understanding and yes, as far as I know, SO FAR I'm the only one who believes along these lines. If I'm wrong in this understanding then I'm wrong, but if I'm correct then it's not because I'm special but because truth is truth and has always been truth since eternity - which was long before you and I were born. (Maybe you should bear that in mind once in a while, or at least A LOT more often, before you throw your accusations at people).

I understand all that, but I also believe that God does not reveal anything to just one person. So, if I see something that, as far as I've seen, only one person believes (or very few people) then I can't help but wonder how that could happen. I just don't think God reveals truth to just one person or even just a few people.

First you say,

I can't say you just believe all that because you dreamed it up in your imagination. No, it's what you see taught in scripture. I can respect that even though I disagree.

Then you say something that negates what you had just said in the above quote.

SO NOW WE'RE BACK TO THE SAME ISSUES AGAIN WHERE WE CANNOT AGREE TO DISAGREE.

What did I say that negates that? I am perfectly fine to agree to disagree. If that's what you want in this case, then we can stop talking about this. I'm fine with that. I am simply trying to understand what you believe and also how it can be possible that God would reveal the truth to just one person or very few people, if that is possible. But, if you don't want to talk about that, it's fine.

Eternal life is something scripture says He gives to us only in Christ because eternal life exists only in the Word of God (John 1:4; John 5:26; 1 John 5:11-12).

The Word of God is the living Vine of life (John 1:4; John 15:5-6). Abiding in the Vine is what Adam and Eve failed to do - and until they failed and before they were deceived, there was no death in the Garden of Eden - because God had created Adam and Eve and breathed His life into them, and they became living souls from then on - but only until they believed the word of Satan telling them they would not surely die - and then they sinned, and died.

Never mind. You think I'm claiming that God has revealed this to me alone.

I don't think you're claiming that. I'm just not aware of anyone else who sees all of this the way you do.

According to you I'm wrong of course (which is okay to me because of course I may be wrong) but according to you also, I seem to think I'm "the only one who God has given this understanding to."

No, you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying that you think that. I am not intending to say that, at least. If I have said it, I take it back and ask you to forgive me. I think that. Not you. Key word is "think" there. I don't know what everyone in the world believes, of course. But, I've seen a lot of different beliefs and I've never seen yours before as it relates to this particular topic. Are you aware of anyone who believes the same as you about this?

Yet IF what I see is true, then maybe the apostles all understood it, and maybe the apostles could not get it into the heads of saints like you - no matter what they wrote or how they worded things

- and maybe I'm not the only one who sees this in scripture, but this is what I've seen in scripture through extremely careful and diligent searches of each and every verse containing the words

So, that's what I'm confused about. You are not claiming to be the only one to see that in scripture, but you are saying here that you may be. So, I'm just wondering how that could be the case. I don't personally believe that God would reveal the truth of something like this to only one person. That's just my perspective. Please don't take offense. If you disagree with that, it's fine. We can just move on. I'm just simply trying to understand that perspective.

zoe (life); zao (to be alive | to be living); and psuche (used interchangeably in the N.T for the life, mind and soul of the flesh - which is in the blood - which in Adam's case his psuche became zao when God breathed zoe into Him).

Anyway, forget it. Your insulting ways and hurling false accusations against someone disagreeing with you, are part of your style. You can't help yourself.

You need to have more patience. I can tell that you don't think I'm being sincere that I want to change that, but I am being sincere about it. Isn't patience a virtue of being a Christian? You're not showing much patience with me here. I ask that you give me a chance and give me a bit more time to keep improving in that area. Or not. You can just ignore me if you want. It's up to you, of course.

 

[Zao is life]

Please be patient with me. If you don't want to believe that I'm trying to just discuss scripture and leave insults out of it, then I can't help that, but you don't know me. God does and He knows that I confessed to Him that I was wrong for doing that and I asked Him to help me stop doing that. It's not just going to happen immediately. I think I've already improved in that area and I'm going to keep making an effort to do that. I am not trying to offend you. I am just trying to understand the mindset of people (it's not just you who has unique beliefs, obviously) who have unique views on some things that no one else has or very few people have. I'm wondering how that happens.


I understand all that, but I also believe that God does not reveal anything to just one person. So, if I see something that, as far as I've seen, only one person believes (or very few people) then I can't help but wonder how that could happen. I just don't think God reveals truth to just one person or even just a few people.




What did I say that negates that? I am perfectly fine to agree to disagree. If that's what you want in this case, then we can stop talking about this. I'm fine with that. I am simply trying to understand what you believe and also how it can be possible that God would reveal the truth to just one person or very few people, if that is possible. But, if you don't want to talk about that, it's fine.


I don't think you're claiming that. I'm just not aware of anyone else who sees all of this the way you do.


No, you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying that you think that. I am not intending to say that, at least. If I have said it, I take it back and ask you to forgive me. I think that. Not you. Key word is "think" there. I don't know what everyone in the world believes, of course. But, I've seen a lot of different beliefs and I've never seen yours before as it relates to this particular topic. Are you aware of anyone who believes the same as you about this?


So, that's what I'm confused about. You are not claiming to be the only one to see that in scripture, but you are saying here that you may be. So, I'm just wondering how that could be the case. I don't personally believe that God would reveal the truth of something like this to only one person. That's just my perspective. Please don't take offense. If you disagree with that, it's fine. We can just move on. I'm just simply trying to understand that perspective.


You need to have more patience. I can tell that you don't think I'm being sincere that I want to change that, but I am being sincere about it. Isn't patience a virtue of being a Christian? You're not showing much patience with me here. I ask that you give me a chance and give me a bit more time to keep improving in that area. Or not. You can just ignore me if you want. It's up to you, of course.

I will also try to count to 10 before I react like that.

My reaction was an over-reaction again, and I also need to confess and repent. I haven't done so yet - but I will. God knows I'm fully aware of my sins and shortcomings all the time, and confess daily, so it's not as though I'm not aware of my own shortcomings.

There was definitely a better way for me to have reacted. Or better words to choose without failing to address your accusations or what you were implying.

So you asked if I have heard of anyone else who believes what I'm saying? No (at least not as of now) - but for quite a while I thought I was the only one who came to believe that the NHNE and the 1,000 years both commence immediately after the return of Christ. I thought I was probably the only one in the world who had come to that conclusion.

At first I thought I'd better not shout out too loud about it - and then to my BIG surprise - I discovered there was at least one other person on the planet who had come to the same conclusion - and he wasn't in the Far East and unable to speak English, he was right here, posting in these boards.

I have not heard of anyone (yet) who has said what I'm asserting that this is what the Bible is actually saying about eternal life and immortality.

Jesus said, "I am in my Father, and ye (will be) in me, and I in you." (John 14:19b-20b).

John wrote, "God has given to us eternal life [zoe], and this (eternal) life [zōḗ] is IN His Son"; and,

"He that has the Son has this (eternal) life [zoe]; and he that has not the Son of God has not this (eternal) life [zōḗ]." (1 John 5:11-12).

Paul calls it "The mystery which has been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints", which is "Christ IN you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27).

Paul also says, "When Christ, who is our life [zoe], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

I believe that "the hope of glory" is the resurrection of our bodies as glorious spiritual bodies when Christ appears.

And we will be immortal - but will not possess our immortality ourselves because we are created human beings and eternal life is not our possession, but it's in God, and it's CHRIST IN us. That's what (who) maintains life in any creature - Christ IN you, which is the Word of God by whom all things were created (John 1:4) - IN you.

God breathed life [zoe] into Adam - the human creature He had created - and Adam became a living [zao] soul [psuche].
​

If there are created human beings who did have the eternal life of Christ IN them, and had never died (were immortal), then Adam and Eve are those people.

And if created human beings who are immortal are incapable of dying (of losing their immortality in the process), then Adam and Eve would not have died. Satan told them they would not die.

SECOND death: But the second death that we've all read about in the scriptures is not the same as the first death (Adam's death) - because the second death is the destruction of death and hades - and all whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life - in the lake of fire - everlasting destruction - which is also the judgment.

But Jesus promises those who overcome:

"The one who overcomes, that one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev.3:5-6).

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death." (Rev.2:11)

What does it mean, Jesus "will not blot out the names of those who overcome out of the book of life"? Can the names of created human beings be blotted out of the book of life if their names were never in the book of life?

Why would that only count for THIS life? Why does THIS only count for THIS life:

--- I am the vine, ye are the branches. Abide in me, and I in you, because if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned, and as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. --- John 15:4-6 (verses rearranged)

The Word of God and the Spirit of God is the Vine of life. Life only exists because God exists, and God has existed from eternity, and exists from eternity to eternity.

Eternal life was in the Word of God (John 1:4) since long, long before He created the universe and human beings. So how do created human beings obtain eternal life when only God possesses it, and He alone possesses it in Himself, according to the scriptures?​

John wrote, "God has given to us eternal life [zoe], and this (eternal) life [zōḗ] is IN His Son" (1 John 5:11-12); and,

"For as the Father hath life [zōḗ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself." (John 5:26), because,

"The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4); and Paul says to us,

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

"When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

"For the law of the Spirit of the life [zoe] (which is) in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

"Christ in you" = eternal life IN you = the Kingdom of God IN you.

Or don't you believe that when God had created Adam and breathed life into him, Adam's name was written into the book of life before he sinned and began to die?

Why was Adam prevented by God from eating of the tree of life after he sinned? Why did he die if created human beings with immortality cannot lose that immortality if they stop abiding in the Vine of life?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I will also try to count to 10 before I react like that.

My reaction was an over-reaction again, and I also need to confess and repent. I haven't done so yet - but I will. God knows I'm fully aware of my sins and shortcomings all the time, and confess daily, so it's not as though I'm not aware of my own shortcomings.

There was definitely a better way for me to have reacted. Or better words to choose without failing to address your accusations or what you were implying.​

It's fine. No problem. We're all flawed human beings. Let's just try to have grace and patience with each other and realize that we might fail at that here and there.

So you asked if I have heard of anyone else who believes what I'm saying? No (at least not as of now) - but for quite a while I thought I was the only one who came to believe that the NHNE and the 1,000 years both commence immediately after the return of Christ. I thought I was probably the only one in the world who had come to that conclusion.

Yes, I knew Davidpt believed that, but you two do differ in that you only see immortals on the new earth during that time and he believes mortals are on the earth during that time.

At first I thought I'd better not shout out too loud about it - and then to my BIG surprise - I discovered there was at least one other person on the planet who had come to the same conclusion - and he wasn't in the Far East and unable to speak English, he was right here, posting in these boards.

I have not heard of anyone (yet) who has said what I'm asserting that this is what the Bible is actually saying about eternal life and immortality.​

Right. It doesn't necessarily mean no one else does. Honestly, I don't even fully understand what you say about all that, but what I do understand of what you're saying, I disagree with some of it. You already know that. We've already discussed it in depth. I'm not going to respond to it anymore because we'll probably just never agree about that.