An analogy of the "trinity" through physical science

[michaelvpardo]

People struggle with the concept of one God manifest in three persons, but creation gives us illustrations that help and some are a bit more helpful than a "three leaf clover."

The concept of "element" is older than modern Chemistry, but the idea that material things are composed of elementary particles or pieces has been refined over time. The science of Chemistry has practical application because it defines an element as the smallest unit of matter that displays the properties unique to that matter. The periodic table of elements describes all the elements known to exist based upon the atomic number and atomic weight of each element which is unique and starts with the lightest element and ends with the heaviest.

Elements comprise matter and have nothing to do with spirit so this doesn't perfectly describe spiritual truth, but can reveal it as the work of our creator.

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:20

Now, elements combine to form "molecules", the smallest unit of a substance that isn't "elemental". Elemental substances, like Gold or neon gas, and molecular substances like water, can all exist in three states, as solids, liquids, or gases. Water is probably the easiest substance to use as an example because most human beings are familiar with the three "states" of water. We usually recognize water as liquid, that can be frozen solid, or heated into a gas (as steam or water vapor).

Water as a substance, is a molecle that consists of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom. Water retains the same molecular properties whether it's a solid, a liquid or a gas. That is, the molecular weight ( based upon atomic weights), and chemical properties remain the same whether the water is solid, liquid, or gas, but the physical properties are obviously very different between the three possible states. As an analogy with God, we could compare the solid state with Jesus, the bodily manifestation of God, the liquid state with the Holy Spirit that "goes where it will", and the gaseous state with the "Father" who can't be seen, yet permeates and fills space. Yet all the states share one common nature.
Creation reveals God (or at least our perception of creation does.)

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Trinitarians often try to use this as an argument, but they fail to realize how illogical and dangerous it is to define God by the things He created. God is a Spirit, and therefore isn't subject to the physical laws of nature, nor should anybody attempt to define who He is using natural laws. These weak and asinine attempts are concocted by and absorbed by minds that are devoid of God.

Mankind has always attempted to reduce God to being something physical because they cannot understand spiritual things, and the trinity doctrine is no different from all of the the other foolish attempts at likening the eternal God to physical and corruptible matter using pagan philosophy.

If the Bible truly taught the trinity, it would be simple enough for anyone to understand it. The fact that this doctrine wasn't formulated until 3 whole centuries after Christ and enforced by a sun-worshiping emperor ought to make more people realize that they've been bamboozled.

 

[Bob Estey]

People struggle with the concept of one God manifest in three persons, but creation gives us illustrations that help and some are a bit more helpful than a "three leaf clover."

The concept of "element" is older than modern Chemistry, but the idea that material things are composed of elementary particles or pieces has been refined over time. The science of Chemistry has practical application because it defines an element as the smallest unit of matter that displays the properties unique to that matter. The periodic table of elements describes all the elements known to exist based upon the atomic number and atomic weight of each element which is unique and starts with the lightest element and ends with the heaviest.

Elements comprise matter and have nothing to do with spirit so this doesn't perfectly describe spiritual truth, but can reveal it as the work of our creator.

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:20

Now, elements combine to form "molecules", the smallest unit of a substance that isn't "elemental". Elemental substances, like Gold or neon gas, and molecular substances like water, can all exist in three states, as solids, liquids, or gases. Water is probably the easiest substance to use as an example because most human beings are familiar with the three "states" of water. We usually recognize water as liquid, that can be frozen solid, or heated into a gas (as steam or water vapor).

Water as a substance, is a molecle that consists of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom. Water retains the same molecular properties whether it's a solid, a liquid or a gas. That is, the molecular weight ( based upon atomic weights), and chemical properties remain the same whether the water is solid, liquid, or gas, but the physical properties are obviously very different between the three possible states. As an analogy with God, we could compare the solid state with Jesus, the bodily manifestation of God, the liquid state with the Holy Spirit that "goes where it will", and the gaseous state with the "Father" who can't be seen, yet permeates and fills space. Yet all the states share one common nature.
Creation reveals God (or at least our perception of creation does.)

I see the Trinity as one person doing three different things, like a man who is a father, husband, son, member of the city baseball team, account, and overall swell fellow.

 

[amadeus]

I see the Trinity as one person doing three different things, like a man who is a father, husband, son, member of the city baseball team, account, and overall swell fellow.

A man with three arms, right?

 

[Bob Estey]

A man with three arms, right?

I haven't seen one of those.

 

[amadeus]

I haven't seen one of those.

LOL... Neither have I!
Give God the glory!

 

[michaelvpardo]

Trinitarians often try to use this as an argument, but they fail to realize how illogical and dangerous it is to define God by the things He created. God is a Spirit, and therefore isn't subject to the physical laws of nature, nor should anybody attempt to define who He is using natural laws. These weak and asinine attempts are concocted by and absorbed by minds that are devoid of God.

Mankind has always attempted to reduce God to being something physical because they cannot understand spiritual things, and the trinity doctrine is no different from all of the the other foolish attempts at likening the eternal God to physical and corruptible matter using pagan philosophy.

If the Bible truly taught the trinity, it would be simple enough for anyone to understand it. The fact that this doctrine wasn't formulated until 3 whole centuries after Christ and enforced by a sun-worshiping emperor ought to make more people realize that they've been bamboozled.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make you correct.
Maybe you're just blind.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Romans 1:18-23

This is used as the basis of judgment in the context of the chapter:
"because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. "
Believe the word of God.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I see the Trinity as one person doing three different things, like a man who is a father, husband, son, member of the city baseball team, account, and overall swell fellow.

Well, then you understand the concept. The point is that God is manifest in three persons, but Satan denies this.
Matthew 4:3
Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

Matthew 4:6
and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: ‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ”

The cults are Satanic.

 

[Daniel L.]

As an analogy with God, we could compare the solid state with Jesus, the bodily manifestation of God, the liquid state with the Holy Spirit that "goes where it will", and the gaseous state with the "Father" who can't be seen, yet permeates and fills space. Yet all the states share one common nature.

This is a terrible analogy for the Trinity, because it seperates solid from liquid from gas, since water cannot be solid, liquid and gas at the same time, in the same place. Which is exactly what you find in Jesus: you find All in One, both solid, liquid and gas in One place at the same time, you dont just find solid water.

all of the the other foolish attempts at likening the eternal God to physical and corruptible matter

You mean this "attempt at likening the Eternal God to physical matter" ?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

If the Bible truly taught the trinity, it would be simple enough for anyone to understand it.

It is simple to those to whom it is given, but impossible to those whom it is not given, this is why He speaks in parables too:

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

 

[michaelvpardo]

This is a terrible analogy for the Trinity, because it seperates solid from liquid from gas, since water cannot be solid, liquid and gas at the same time, in the same place. Which is exactly what you find in Jesus: you find All in One, both solid, liquid and gas in One place at the same time, you dont just find solid water.



You mean this "attempt at likening the Eternal God to physical matter" ?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:



It is simple to those to whom it is given, but impossible to those whom it is not given, this is why He speaks in parables too:

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

You don't know your chemistry. Ice is frozen water, steam is water vapor. All three are water, all three have the same exact molecular formula and chemical properties or one could not become the other.
At least you're consistent in your ignorance.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

As an analogy with God, we could compare the solid state with Jesus, the bodily manifestation of God, the liquid state with the Holy Spirit that "goes where it will", and the gaseous state with the "Father" who can't be seen, yet permeates and fills space. Yet all the states share one common nature.

This is a good example of Modal Monarchianism - common with folks of the "Oneness persuasion". Their God is like Superman - ducking into a phone booth to change clothes to be somebody else.

My favorite inaccurate illustration is a three-dimensional solid CUBE. It has three attributes: depth, Width, and Height, and EVERY POINT in each attribute, is also constantly found in the other two - all the time with no "changing of state". What you see depends of which "Face" of the cube you happen to be looking at.

 

[Daniel L.]

Ice is frozen water, steam is water vapor. All three are water, all three have the same exact molecular formula and chemical properties

Even tho all three are water, they cannot co-exist at the same place at the same time: water cannot be solid, liquid and gas at the same time, in the same place. Which is exactly what you find in Jesus: you find All in One, both solid, liquid and gas in One place at the same time, not just one of the three.

If you put ice, water and gas in one place, it is the temperature that dictates what they shall become, they will change, and all three will eventually be reduced to just one, if it is normal temperature, just water. Ice and gas cease to exist.
Unlike the Trinity were All Three wont change, are not bound to temperature, will not become just the Father. But all Three exist forever.

 

[michaelvpardo]

This is a good example of Modal Monarchianism - common with folks of the "Oneness persuasion". Their God is like Superman - ducking into a phone booth to change clothes to be somebody else.

My favorite inaccurate illustration is a three-dimensional solid CUBE. It has three attributes: depth, Width, and Height, and EVERY POINT in each attribute, is also constantly found in the other two - all the time with no "changing of state". What you see depends of which "Face" of the cube you happen to be looking at.

Once again for the slow of mind, the analogy is in the fact that water can exist in 3 possible forms while remaining water, just as God can manifest in three persons while remaining one God. It's not rocket science, it's basic chemistry in comparison to the God of scripture. If it were sufficient to observe ice in order to understand God, we wouldn't have the scriptures, but creation reflects the creator just as a piece of music reflects the mind of the composer, or the painting reflects the mind of the artist.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Even tho all three are water, they cannot co-exist at the same place at the same time: water cannot be solid, liquid and gas at the same time, in the same place. Which is exactly what you find in Jesus: you find All in One, both solid, liquid and gas in One place at the same time, not just one of the three.

If you put ice, water and gas in one place, it is the temperature that dictates what they shall become, they will change, and all three will eventually be reduced to just one, if it is normal temperature, just water. Ice and gas cease to exist.
Unlike the Trinity were All Three wont change, are not bound to temperature, will not become just the Father. But all Three exist forever.

Wow, that's a lot less ignorant than your first post. Nothing in creation can possibly be a perfect analogy for God, so what's your point?
Do you believe the scriptures or are you just another troll?

 

[Daniel L.]

water can exist in 3 possible forms while remaining water, just as God can manifest in three persons while remaining one God.

You are ignoring co-existance at the same point in space: Water cannot co-exist in the same point in space as both ice, gas and water at the same time, even tho the composition is the same. And in Jesus there co-exists both Father Son and Holy Spirit in one point in space and forever in time, unlike in your analogy.

Also you can separate solid from liquid from gas, even tho they are all made out of water, they can exist separate from each other in different places in space and time. Jesus cannot be seperated from the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. They Eternally Co-Exist.

Nothing in creation can possibly be a perfect analogy for God, so what's your point?

Adam is the image of God, after His likeness, so if you dont believe in perfect analogies, dont believe on an imperfect one.

 

[michaelvpardo]

You are ignoring co-existance at the same point in space: Water cannot co-exist in the same point in space as both ice, gas and water at the same time, even tho the composition is the same. And in Jesus there co-exists both Father Son and Holy Spirit in one point in space and forever in time, unlike in your analogy.

Also you can separate solid from liquid from gas, even tho they are all made out of water, they can exist separate from each other in different places in space and time. Jesus cannot be seperated from the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. They Eternally Co-Exist.



Adam is the image of God, after His likeness, so if you dont believe in perfect analogies, dont believe on an imperfect one.

You're ignoring that in my posts I've stated that nothing in creation can be a perfect analogy of the trinity, but reveals the nature of God imperfectly. Perhaps your problem is just poor reading comprehension.

 

[Daniel L.]

The thing is you are not imperfectly representing the trinity, you are representing modalism and polytheism and calling it "Analogy of the Trinity", and by misrepresenting the Trinity you give the enemy and opportunity to blaspheme, which was the first thing that happend:

These weak and asinine attempts are concocted by and absorbed by minds that are devoid of God.

the trinity doctrine is no different from all of the the other foolish attempts at likening the eternal God to physical and corruptible matter using pagan philosophy.

Now he goes off thinking trinitarians are "weak and asinine"; "devoid of God";"foolish"; "using pagan philosophy".

Stick to Adam as an analogy, male and female are both called Adam, shall become one flesh. Three disting persons, One name, Adam to say humanity. All co-exist forever, Eve is flesh of Adam's flesh, so Adam is in Eve, and Eve in Adam, and their son is also their flesh and their blood, All are one. And they are inseperable, for if any of the three is removed, all three will perish, eventually.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The thing is you are not imperfectly representing the trinity, you are representing modalism and polytheism and calling it "Analogy of the Trinity", and by misrepresenting the Trinity you give the enemy and opportunity to blaspheme, which was the first thing that happend:




Now he goes off thinking trinitarians are "weak and asinine"; "devoid of God";"foolish"; "using pagan philosophy".

Stick to Adam as an analogy, male and female are both called Adam, shall become one flesh. Three disting persons, One name, Adam to say humanity. All co-exist forever, Eve is flesh of Adam's flesh, so Adam is in Eve, and Eve in Adam, and their son is also their flesh and their blood, All are one. And they are inseperable, for if any of the three is removed, all three will perish, eventually.

Terrible analogy. Adam, Eve, and their children were all flesh, but they weren't all one. Scripture says Adam and Eve are representative of Christ and His church, not the trinity. Can God be deceived as Eve was? Can God sin as Adam did?
Your reinterpretation of scripture to support argument denies what was taught by the Apostle. That's what we call unsound doctrine.

 

[Daniel L.]

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Terrible analogy.

Adam, Eve, and their children were all flesh, but they weren't all one.

Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The flesh in Eve is the flesh in Adam, so Adam is in Eve and Eve in Adam. Theyr son is also the flesh of Adam and Eve, so every one is in the other two, they are all in one, and one has the other two in him.

Can God be deceived as Eve was? Can God sin as Adam did?

No, the nature of God cannot be deceived nor sin. Don't compare the nature or essence of God to man, just because the nature of God is different than the nature of Adam doesn't mean Adam is not the image of God. We only use the nature of Adam to say: all three are of one nature. The nature of Adam does not have to be the nature of God in order for it to be His image, or else it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be God Himself. So it is an analogy of the mechanics like: Three in one; co-existance; inseperable. And not a comparison of Adam beeing equal to God in nature.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:




Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The flesh in Eve is the flesh in Adam, so Adam is in Eve and Eve in Adam. Theyr son is also the flesh of Adam and Eve, so every one is in the other two, they are all in one, and one has the other two in him.



No, the nature of God cannot be deceived nor sin. Don't compare the nature or essence of God to man, just because the nature of God is different than the nature of Adam doesn't mean Adam is not the image of God. We only use the nature of Adam to say: all three are of one nature. The nature of Adam does not have to be the nature of God in order for it to be His image, or else it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be God Himself. So it is an analogy of the mechanics like: Three in one; co-existance; inseperable. And not a comparison of Adam beeing equal to God in nature.

Very good, so you do actually understand what an analogy is, but are just trolling my post. I'm impressed with your vanity. Have a nice day.