An interesting question about Holy Spirit Baptism

[Asyncritus]

Jesus says:

Jn 3. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That's very clear.

Now Hebrews 11 (have a good look if you don't know the chapter) says explicitly that all of these godly people, starting with Abel. WILL BE in the Kingdom of God, when they receive the promise of God.

The interesting question is this:

Were they baptised with the Holy Spirit? And since they were all in the OT, how and when?

And if not, does Jesus' statement fall on the ground?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I think you are getting off on the wrong foot by assuming "born of the Spirit" equates to "baptism of the Spirit"

 

[Asyncritus]

Careless of me. I was conflating born of water = baptism of water, and born of the spirit = baptism of the spirit.
Seemed logical.

So to rephrase the question more correctly, were these people BORN of the spirit?

If so, when?

And if not, how can they be in the Kingdom of God?

 

[Mungo]

Jesus was announcing something new, for the future. That is why Nicodemus didn't understand him.

Being born of water and Spirit (water baptism) was to become the way of entering into the New Covenant.

 

[Asyncritus]

Jesus was announcing something new, for the future. That is why Nicodemus didn't understand him.

Being born of water and Spirit (water baptism) was to become the way of entering into the New Covenant.

Do you think the Ethiopian eunuch and the Philippian jailor were baptised of the spirit? If so, why is there no mention of it? Seems to me that if it was something so really important, it should have been stated.

But it's not. Why not?

Are you suggesting that water baptism = being born of water and of the spirit?

 

[Mungo]

Do you think the Ethiopian eunuch and the Philippian jailor were baptised of the spirit? If so, why is there no mention of it? Seems to me that if it was something so really important, it should have been stated.

But it's not. Why not?

Are you suggesting that water baptism = being born of water and of the spirit?

If you are asking whether (water) batism is the same as baptism in the Holy Spirit then no.

The phrase in John 3:5 is .of water and the Spirit

What do you understand by of water and of the Spirit ?

I think we may be into picky arguments about prepositions.

 

[logabe]

Jesus says:

Jn 3. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That's very clear.

Now Hebrews 11 (have a good look if you don't know the chapter) says explicitly that all of these godly people, starting with Abel. WILL BE in the Kingdom of God, when they receive the promise of God.

The interesting question is this:

Were they baptised with the Holy Spirit? And since they were all in the OT, how and when?

And if not, does Jesus' statement fall on the ground?

Jesus says:

Jn 3. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That's very clear.

Now Hebrews 11 (have a good look if you don't know the chapter) says explicitly that all of these godly people, starting with Abel. WILL BE in the Kingdom of God, when they receive the promise of God.

The interesting question is this:

Were they baptised with the Holy Spirit? And since they were all in the OT, how and when?

And if not, does Jesus' statement fall on the ground?

In the Old Covenant the Spirit would come upon individuals and give them power
to perform God's Will. In the New Covenant, Jesus opened the door for whosoever
will, let him come (Joel 2:28).

Jesus told His disciples to stay at Jerusalem and wait for the PROMISE of the HOLY
GHOST (Acts 1:4-5). He also said, you shall receive POWER after the Holy Ghost has
come upon you (Acts 1:8).

When the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Suddenly the Holy Ghost came and Peter began to preach Jesus to the multitudes. And
hear is what he said... REPENT (change what you are doing and thinking) and be baptized
in the NAME of JESUS for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the GIFT
of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38-39). Peter said it was for everybody, even as many as the
Lord our God shall call.

We get confirmation of this message of the Promise in Acts 8:16-17, Acts 10:44-48, and
Acts 19:5-6. In all three of these occasions the people were born of the water and of the
Spirit just as Jesus had told them to do in John 3:5.

Were the godly people in the Old Testament saved? Sure they were... the Kingdom of God
is progressive and they were saved by Grace through Faith just like we are today. The only
difference is God resides inside of us because of the act that Jesus performed on the CROSS.

Things changed or progressed to a different level after the Holy Ghost was given on the day
of Pentecost two thousand years ago. That's why the disciples went out and baptized with
water and Spirit and taught the people how to become a citizen in the Kingdom of God.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

In the Old Covenant the Spirit would come upon individuals and give them power
to perform God's Will. In the New Covenant, Jesus opened the door for whosoever
will, let him come (Joel 2:28).

With all respect Logabe , the pride-filled Pentecostal makes an error when claiming Joel 2:28 for himself

Careless of me. I was conflating born of water = baptism of water, and born of the spirit = baptism of the spirit.
Seemed logical.

So to rephrase the question more correctly, were these people BORN of the spirit?

If so, when?

And if not, how can they be in the Kingdom of God?

Hi Asyncritus

The truth is , none of us knows for certain what Jesus meant when he said ...
“Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

It appears to be heavenly things going by how Jesus answered Nicodemus ....
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

None of us have seen the kingdom yet
None of us have entered the Kingdom yet
Being born of water and spirit must be something in the future
At present we certainly have salvation , but to call it "the kingdom" does not fit.
Although harmless .... our notion of being "Born again" (present tense) is probably completely wrong
Best wishes , and be assured that if you are a believer , you certainly will be born again someday , and you will enter the kingdom someday.

Now Hebrews 11 (have a good look if you don't know the chapter) says explicitly that all of these godly people, starting with Abel. WILL BE in the Kingdom of God, when they receive the promise of God.

Excellent observation , as you have highlighted will be in red .... and that is the gist of some of my comments above ... we also will be in the kingdom some day , that day is not yet , but folks keep trying to use those verses for today , it is a common mistake.

 

[Mungo]

Hi Asyncritus

The truth is , none of us knows for certain what Jesus meant when he said ...
“Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

It appears to be heavenly things going by how Jesus answered Nicodemus ....
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

None of us have seen the kingdom yet
None of us have entered the Kingdom yet
Being born of water and spirit must be something in the future
At present we certainly have salvation , but to call it "the kingdom" does not fit.
Although harmless .... our notion of being "Born again" (present tense) is probably completely wrong
Best wishes , and be assured that if you are a believer , you certainly will be born again someday , and you will enter the kingdom someday.

Christians have known for 2,000 years what Jesus meant.

Being born from above of water and Spirit is (water) baptism.

It's the same as Titus 3:5. "he saved us...... by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit"

And we are in the kingdom right now if we have been validly baptised.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Careless of me. I was conflating born of water = baptism of water, and born of the spirit = baptism of the spirit.
Seemed logical.

So to rephrase the question more correctly, were these people BORN of the spirit?

If so, when?

And if not, how can they be in the Kingdom of God?

They could very well be "born of the spirit" now ... because they have passed away and are now with the Lord. verses in a minute.

Like I said , it appears those things happen after death , and most likely that is when the transition is to the kingdom (city) , and I believe they are there now .... in spirit .... and I think that is what will happen to us (Christians) when we pass away (to be present with the Lord)

You appear to be a careful reader Asyncritus , and I expect you can see what I am saying in the next chapter of Hebrews

Hebrews 12:22 .... But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous now made perfect,

"spirits of the righteous now made perfect" is referring to those old testament saints , who are now with the Lord in the city (heavenly Jerusalem)

By the way , that city is the one God brings down here in the future (end of revelation)

 

[clark thompson]

The men of old had faith that the Spirit of God gave them but they did not have the Spirit inside them as we as believers do today.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

The men of old had faith that the Spirit of God gave them but they did not have the Spirit inside them as we as believers do today.

Agreed .... it appears the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a christian phenomenon and applies to all who are saved through Christ.

In the OT the HS was only used on occasion , and on certain people , not only that , for the OT prophets God actually spoke to them and gave them "The Words of The Lord" .... etc

other than maybe the apostles , God no longer does it that way since Christ , nor does he have prophets like in the old days. That may change in the endtimes with the 2 witnesses and the 144k sealed but we are not there yet.

Best wishes.

 

[logabe]

With all respect Logabe , the pride-filled Pentecostal makes an error when claiming Joel 2:28 for himself

Hi Asyncritus

The truth is , none of us knows for certain what Jesus meant when he said ...
“Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

It appears to be heavenly things going by how Jesus answered Nicodemus ....
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

None of us have seen the kingdom yet
None of us have entered the Kingdom yet
Being born of water and spirit must be something in the future
At present we certainly have salvation , but to call it "the kingdom" does not fit.
Although harmless .... our notion of being "Born again" (present tense) is probably completely wrong
Best wishes , and be assured that if you are a believer , you certainly will be born again someday , and you will enter the kingdom someday.


Excellent observation , as you have highlighted will be in red .... and that is the gist of some of my comments above ... we also will be in the kingdom some day , that day is not yet , but folks keep trying to use those verses for today , it is a common mistake.

With all respect Logabe , the pride-filled Pentecostal makes an error when claiming Joel 2:28 for himself

Hi Asyncritus

The truth is , none of us knows for certain what Jesus meant when he said ...
“Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

It appears to be heavenly things going by how Jesus answered Nicodemus ....
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

None of us have seen the kingdom yet
None of us have entered the Kingdom yet
Being born of water and spirit must be something in the future
At present we certainly have salvation , but to call it "the kingdom" does not fit.
Although harmless .... our notion of being "Born again" (present tense) is probably completely wrong
Best wishes , and be assured that if you are a believer , you certainly will be born again someday , and you will enter the kingdom someday.


Excellent observation , as you have highlighted will be in red .... and that is the gist of some of my comments above ... we also will be in the kingdom some day , that day is not yet , but folks keep trying to use those verses for today , it is a common mistake.

Arnie... with all due respect... I do think that is exactly what Joel was talking about.

Jesus told His disciples to go to Jerusalem during the Day of Pentecost. When that
precise moment came, God poured out His Spirit upon about 120 people and in turn
they spread the Gospel all through the land as we have read in the book of Acts in
the last post.

What did they do? They baptized and re-baptized people in water and they laid hands
on them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. Arnie... did you read that last post?
Take your time and read it... don't get mad @ me... I didn't write that, Luke did.

I want to prove to you that Joel was talking about the Holy Ghost being poured out on
the people in that day and today. After the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the 120,
Peter spoke and this is what he said (Acts 2:16-18).

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I
will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and
your daughters shall prophesy , and your young men shall
see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams :
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour
out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy :

Arnie... I hope I'm not one of them pride-filled Pentecostals, but I have been baptized in
the Holy Ghost and experienced the power from on high... if that is what you mean. If
anyone hasn't received the Holy Ghost... just ask God and He will do it. We shouldn't get
upset if we haven't received the Holy Ghost, it's a gift from God and if you truly have that
experience you will be humble and you will want everybody to receive it.

Most people haven't received the Holy Ghost because of the religion or theology they believe
in. Faith comes by hearing and you must hear about the power of the experience in order to
believe it. Jesus spoke in Acts 1:8, you shall receive POWER after the Holy Ghost comes upon
you. He wasn't talking to a bunch of unbelievers, but he was talking to men that had walked
with Him and seen Him display the many miracles for three and a half years. What if the men
told Jesus they didn't have to stay in Jerusalem, because they already had the Holy Ghost? They
probably wouldn't have received it.

But Jesus told them they needed MORE POWER. These men could have told Jesus they didn't
need this experience like some people do today. They would rather argue that they have it all,
than to believe that God has more for them if they would just ask Him for it.

If you don't like what I am saying... take me out of the equation... and just read what they did
and ask God to fill you everyday. It's not about who is right and who is wrong, but it is about
being filled daily with the POWER of the Spirit so we can go about right now and spread the Gospel
to someone that needs your help.

What are we going to do NOW... I'm going to ask Jesus to fill me NOW. Why? I get cold sometimes,
and I have to stir up that gift that is inside. I have to keep it fresh so God can use me when He pleases.
God will do the same for everybody else, because He is no respecter of persons, but we are responsible
for asking and stirring up that gift that God has given us.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Logabe .... I am aware of all that and I am not trying to nit-pick , but the statement Jesus made was .... John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Can we automatically assume he meant to say ....... Except a man be baptized in water and be baptized with the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

See what I mean Logabe .... we often make that assumption .... and I am not quite as comfortable doing so , and that was the point I was trying to make.

I feel it is a harmless assumption .... trouble is if we build on a whole lot of similar small assumptions , before we know it the Pentecostal has constructed a "special doctrine" exclusively for themselves and forget all the other content for other believers and Israel .

I am Pentecostal by the way , but keep much of it at arms length , and I find my arm grows a bit longer every year. It has become more about Emotions than Spirit.

And as far as Joel 2:28 ... yes it can be (partly) applied to the Holy Spirit coming to some Gentile Christians in acts , and I have no problem if it comes to some Christians even today.

But My issue is that there are a whole lot of other things yet to happen before Joel 2:28 is fully fulfilled .... take a look at them all in Joel ch 2

Summary .... I think we are both on the same page .... just maybe I see a lot more in Joel that a few folks speaking in tongues etc.

Joel isn't just about some little pentecostal experience .... it is mostly focused on ... Joel 2:18

I am trying to look at everything in the big picture.

A lot of Charismatic Pentecostalism has become a trail of wreckage (unfortunately)

Whereas Israel is being built up (by the looks of it)

We can find plenty of comparisons in Joel to modern day Israel

Maybe that is what is happening .

Hope that makes sense.

 

[JesusWept]

This was something I was asking on my other forum, after I had been reading the OT up through 1 Kings, thereabouts.

The Holy Spirit indwelled believers in God in the OT, we know that. There were believers that were saved, and are just as saved as christians after Jesus came and taught that now the new covenant told we must be born-again. This now included gentiles, as well as the Jewish chosen people of God. We know Elijah and Moses for two, were alive, in their new bodies during the transfiguration with Jesus.

So I believe those in the OT were born-again, some are written about where they were given new names (meaning a new man in God). God was always 3 persons. I don't think there is much mystery about it now but I am also realizing God doesn't have every, single thing written in the Word. Some things we just have to take by faith.

That is just how I understand it now. denise, a sister in Christ

Careless of me. I was conflating born of water = baptism of water, and born of the spirit = baptism of the spirit.
Seemed logical.

So to rephrase the question more correctly, were these people BORN of the spirit?

If so, when?

And if not, how can they be in the Kingdom of God?

Here's a verse from Malachi, and there are a lot more, that speak of the HS in the OT:
from bible.org
Malachi 2:15
New King James Version (NKJV)



15 But did He not make them one,
Having a remnant of the Spirit?
And why one?
He seeks godly offspring.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.

Also, David is a good example of having the Holy Spirit, and Saul, where the Holy Spirit left him.

Here are some OT verses. I realize I am not answering your question on "how they were born-again" but I just think it is important for me to know they were.

You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst (Nehemiah 9:20; cf. also 9:30).
But it is the Spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding (Job 32:8).
Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground (Psalm 143:10).
The Holy Spirit as the Manifestation of God’s Presence
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me (Psalm 51:11).
Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? (Psalm 139:7).
But now be strong, O Zerubbabel,’ declares the Lord. ‘Be strong, O Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest. Be strong, all you people of the land,’ declares the Lord, ‘and work. For I am with you,’ declares the Lord Almighty. ‘This is what I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt. And my Spirit remains among you. Do not fear’ (Haggai 2:4-5).


God bless, and hope this may add something useful to the discussion. To be born-again means to be changed by the presence of God's Spirit living in me, that is how I see it. The beauty of it is really what Jesus has done, to make it possible for even Gentiles to come to God through Him

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

This was something I was asking on my other forum, after I had been reading the OT up through 1 Kings, thereabouts.

The Holy Spirit indwelled believers in God in the OT, we know that. There were believers that were saved, and are just as saved as christians after Jesus came and taught that now the new covenant told we must be born-again. This now included gentiles, as well as the Jewish chosen people of God. We know Elijah and Moses for two, were alive, in their new bodies during the transfiguration with Jesus.

So I believe those in the OT were born-again, some are written about where they were given new names (meaning a new man in God). God was always 3 persons. I don't think there is much mystery about it now but I am also realizing God doesn't have every, single thing written in the Word. Some things we just have to take by faith.

That is just how I understand it now. denise, a sister in Christ

Denise

I think you are probably correct

I look at it slightly different in the sense that Jesus Christ was the ultimate and final sacrifice for mankind .... and God can retroactively apply that salvation to his Old testament people if he wants to.

At times I even go so far as to think he may very well apply that sacrifice to all Israel .... even though all Israel have not accepted Jesus .

God has a covenant with modern Israel just like he has with ancient Israel ..... i feel he will apply his covenant through Christ even though they do not believe in Christ (at this moment.)

Best wishes

 

[SelectThis!]

Denise

I think you are probably correct

I look at it slightly different in the sense that Jesus Christ was the ultimate and final sacrifice for mankind .... and God can retroactively apply that salvation to his Old testament people if he wants to.

At times I even go so far as to think he may very well apply that sacrifice to all Israel .... even though all Israel have not accepted Jesus .

God has a covenant with modern Israel just like he has with ancient Israel ..... i feel he will apply his covenant through Christ even though they do not believe in Christ (at this moment.)

Best wishes

Baptism answers this if you might take a moment to consider my view.

The captives in the pit were rescued and resurrected. When Christ rose, he was the firstfruits from the dead. We are the resurrection. You must be born again. He preached to the Spirits in the grave, then raised them to new life. You must be born again. Baptism is the flood of Noah. Symbolism was used to show us how God would raise us to the last day, the day of the Lord. ALL of us. All 7 billion.

1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Again, in 1 Peter 4, he states it again.

6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

I like your idea of the retroactive salvation, but I think the Bible is clear that Christ is the Loaf of the bread we share in communion. He is the firstfruits cleansing the temple (Seed / Template) so that those born after the first century have a chance to repent in the waters of life. We are there now. Today.

1 Corinthians 10

17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

We, who are many, are the Body of Christ (Church). The wicked are here too, raised with us.

Acts 24

15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

Remember, Paul was being accused of believing in the resurrection of the dead. He said BOTH the righteous and wicked (All of us) would be raised. Why? To see the main event with our own eyes. Not other's eyes. Our eyes.

Revelation 1:7

7
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

Even those who pierced Christ will see.

Even Job would see. Job knew he would be born again.

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

We have all been born again from the grave. Hell has been emptied.

 

[horsecamp]

Jesus says:

Jn 3. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That's very clear.

Now Hebrews 11 (have a good look if you don't know the chapter) says explicitly that all of these godly people, starting with Abel. WILL BE in the Kingdom of God, when they receive the promise of God.

The interesting question is this:

Were they baptised with the Holy Spirit? And since they were all in the OT, how and when?

And if not, does Jesus' statement fall on the ground?

look at the verse in context its clear it refers to THE SACRAMENT of Holy baptism ..

also that is the only baptism Jesus instructs his church to use.. YOU WILL NEVER SEE IN SCRIPTURE JESUS INSTRUCTING HIS CHURCH TO USE ANY OTHER BAPTISM BUT HOLY BAPTISM WHICH INCLUDES THE COMMON ELEMENT OF WATER. so yes the holy spirit is given in holy baptism.

I think you are getting off on the wrong foot by assuming "born of the Spirit" equates to "baptism of the Spirit"

they are not reading the verse in context they are taking the verse out of its context if one continues reading to John 3 :23
its plain its talking about holy baptism ..

Jesus says:

Jn 3. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That's very clear.

Now Hebrews 11 (have a good look if you don't know the chapter) says explicitly that all of these godly people, starting with Abel. WILL BE in the Kingdom of God, when they receive the promise of God.

The interesting question is this:

Were they baptised with the Holy Spirit? And since they were all in the OT, how and when?

And if not, does Jesus' statement fall on the ground?

study the bible like a lutheran ! stop isolating passages ..like a pentecostal
any one can isolate passages from the chapter and take it out of context and make the bible say what they want to .

read the bible like a lutheran would !! even if you are not one! read the verses in context!! the whole chapter and before and after chapters .. and then you will see around verse 23

im a poet ? funny!

 

[logabe]

Baptism answers this if you might take a moment to consider my view.

The captives in the pit were rescued and resurrected. When Christ rose, he was the firstfruits from the dead. We are the resurrection. You must be born again. He preached to the Spirits in the grave, then raised them to new life. You must be born again. Baptism is the flood of Noah. Symbolism was used to show us how God would raise us to the last day, the day of the Lord. ALL of us. All 7 billion.

1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Again, in 1 Peter 4, he states it again.

6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

I like your idea of the retroactive salvation, but I think the Bible is clear that Christ is the Loaf of the bread we share in communion. He is the firstfruits cleansing the temple (Seed / Template) so that those born after the first century have a chance to repent in the waters of life. We are there now. Today.

1 Corinthians 10

17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

We, who are many, are the Body of Christ (Church). The wicked are here too, raised with us.

Acts 24

15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

Remember, Paul was being accused of believing in the resurrection of the dead. He said BOTH the righteous and wicked (All of us) would be raised. Why? To see the main event with our own eyes. Not other's eyes. Our eyes.

Revelation 1:7

7
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

Even those who pierced Christ will see.

Even Job would see. Job knew he would be born again.

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

We have all been born again from the grave. Hell has been emptied.

Yes... I like the way you brought out in Noah's day the water and the Spirit. That is
exactly what Jesus was talking about in John 3:5 when He was speaking of the last
days in Matt. 24:37-39.

I always realized He was speaking of the Spirit being poured out, but I didn't put much
thought in the water until this morning. The water symbolized being born again of the
water and receiving the Holy Ghost was being born of the Spirit just as Jesus said. We
also have confirmation through the disciples in the book of Acts. They all baptized in
Water and in Spirit (Acts 10:44-48).

The water representing coming out of the grave (Rom. 6:3-4), to be born of the water,
and as Peter says, not to clean your body physically, but mentally, you put on a good
conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe